team_mom

Thanks for your thoughtful congratulations, only I feel guilty taking any congrats for my D's friend, although we are very excited for him! He and his parents deserve all the credit, and I will send on your appreciative congratulations. Hopefully, however, in a couple of years I'll be fortunate enough to be in a position to accept those congrats when my D is auditioning for her first symphony job and S1 is auditioning for college. We'll just have to wait and see.

Meanwhile, I just had a most interesting interaction related to this thread that I wanted to relate.

This weekend, while chaperoning S1's HS orchestra tour to Philly, with D's friend and this thread in my thoughts, I had the opportunity to ask their guest conductor, Blair Bollinger, bass trombonist in the Philadelphia Orchestra, what should a young musician do (other than practicing and subbing) to enhance their chances of winning an audition while waiting for auditions to come around. I found his answer surprising.

He said this was a time to fill in holes in the musician's training (who and where.) 1) Did they study with a good teacher, and if not, start now. 2) Did they play in a great school orchestra, and if not, try to sub in a great orchestra (like they wouldn't be already...basically, if you miss this opportunity during school, you can't go back.) And finally 3) He said it is CRITICAL to move to a city with a great orchestra - he offhandedly mentioned 6 or 7, and listen to live performances ALL the time. He said if you immerse yourself in live performances of great orchestras between auditions, this will improve your chances of winning your audition. I'm sure our sage contributors have heard this before, but it was new to me, although it certainly makes sense.

binx

Totally off-topic, team_mom, but Blair Bollinger is from Georgia. When my kid was in middle school, the substitute band director was an older man who had retired from teaching, and had been the MS band director that started BB on his instrument! He was always held up to my S2 as an example of what you can do if you with talent and practice! I even emailed him once, when S2 was in HS, asking for his help in contacting the horn teacher at Curtis, and he responded right away. (We never ended up making contact, but that did end up being S2's teacher!)

How cool that you got to talk to him.

missypie

When I said to aim high, I meant that you should pay attention to how the audition process goes ....Whether your #1, 2, 3 and 4 choices are noted conservatories, or affordable state schools, if schools 1,2 & 3 don't want you (for reasons related to your performance, not your grades), think hard about going to #4. We had a friend who went through a large state U vocal perfomance program and was entering a PhD program before one of the profs leveled with him and told him he just didn't have it. This guy has a pleasant enough voice, but isn't even good enough to get hired as a church soloist.

FiddleMom

I think in days past it might have been more common for a student to make progress in a degree program at a state U and keep moving on through the ranks without any thought to where he/she is going professionally or has the potential to go.

From some of the comments we heard from faculty during last year's audition process- all but one at state Us, I think this has got to be less true than it was. I have recently heard a lot more talk about faculty working with the student- formally through a faculty-led evaluation process, and informally during lessons and other conversations, to define goals that are a fit for that particular student.

My daughter is not heading toward orchestral performance. It is not yet clear exactly what her path will be since her musical interests are different from the typical classical musician. However, in her second semester, her teacher is already exploring with her the possible routes she could follow with her particular interests and the skill set she is developing.

lorelei2702

The problem about the regional schools for performance is that state schools have to turn out so many graduates in each block of years in order to maintain their privilege to keep offering the degree. So, the standard tends not to be as high as it should be as absolute in performance. For this reason, music education or the BA is a good option until external evidence encourages the pursuit of a performance degree. Particularly in voice, the first two years the curriculums are so similar, it is not much of a difficulty to change course. The major state schools tend to have pretty high standards, but some, not all, of the "directional" institutions can have a distorted sense of reality in judging talent and accomplishment. The best tenor may not be very good at all, but he is the only one they have, so he gets to perform a lot. OTOH, he may be pretty good, and he is getting lots of experience, so it is a great situation for him. Taking a sample lesson is a good way to get an idea about the teacher, and sitting in on a studio class or divisional recital is a way to judge the standards.

FiddleMom

Lorelei,

When thinking about the directional schools, is there an easy way to find out how many students from a particular teacher's studio have gone on to graduate study in a big name institution? Or to what institutions a particular school often sends talented students to for graduate study? Is this another way to gauge the overall quality of a program in comparison to other schools of similar size and stature?

lorelei2702

Good idea, and the best way is to ask the teacher what her/his recent graduates are doing and where, and what other students from the school are doing. Most teachers will be glad to tell you. You could also ask what the teacher's best students do in the summers. That will give you an idea of how supportive the system is at the school. Some have nice feeders through alums and connections into interesting opportunities.

jazzzmomm

You can look at faculty lists in the music programs in colleges to see what the backgrounds of those people are, what schools they received undergraduate and graduate degrees from. This is just one way to kind of track the flow of education and links between institutions. It's interesting, though it does not give you a complete picture of where all students from a certain school have dispersed. It's just a little passive research that can be done quickly!

veteranmom

I don't think there is a single answer to that question because students' goals vary so much. I imagine music ed people pretty much can all find jobs. You have to be an amazing player to win even a regional orchestra audition (but this will give you a good income foundation that you can augment with teaching and other performing). Jazz musicians pretty much all starve, I understand. Pianists can always teach. Singers can have trouble getting gigs. Then there is the "other" category that my daughter, a cellist, falls in to. She lives in NYC, where she went to graduate school, and 1 1/2 years out is actually supporting herself with her music...a combination of teaching and performing. She manages this by (a) being a top-drawer player (b) networking like mad (c) working 13 hours a day (d) continuing her artistic development by entering competitions and participating in selected top-flight festivals. She is getting noticed now, and securing ever-better-paying gigs with higher artistic quality, but it is by no means certain she can sustain this as a career that can support a grownup with a family, mortgage, etc. A career as a freelance performer is not for people who can't tolerate uncertainty or who have the slightest hesitation at putting themselves forward.

missypie

There are a lot of college voice faculty members who have decent professional careers....just not enough to support themselves and a family. The faculty position gives them steady income and vaulable things like health insurance and a pension plan. Many still sing with well known orchestras, record, etc. But they can't make enough with just performance.

L. Fortissimo

It's interesting that now everyone is talking about what happens after graduation. Most colleges and universities have some kind of music department or program in which one can teach if one at least has a M.Mus. or preferably a D.M.A. Another post-graduate option is the Ph.D. in musicology with which one can teach at the college level or perhaps work in publishing. This is why it is so important to think through the entire process. Music is one of most fields now that one needs an advanced degree unless pre-college teaching is your goal. There really are few bachelor's degrees with which one can get a good-paying job, so I don't think music is the exception.

cartera45

I agree L. - many music teachers at the elementary level have advanced degrees. My D's high school voice teacher has his DMA from Peabody. It's very competitive whether one chooses performance or not.

veteranmom

Lfortissimo is absolutely right. It is pretty much taken for granted that if you want a performing career, you will secure a M.Mus. immediately after getting out of your undergrad conservatory. I remember when my D went to the info session at the conservatory she attended, in the spring of her senior year, that the dean leading the discussion was quite open about this.

cartera45

In each of the interviews that my D has had with her auditions, when she has been asked what she plans to do with her BM in vocal performance, she simply says to go to graduate school. There really is no other answer. Several have commented that they are relieved that she recognizes that. That doesn't mean that someone can't change their mind and not continue to pursue music, but the reality is that, if one plans to perform or have a successful private studio, a graduate degree is expected. I do know some people who are performing who decided to not go straight to graduate school, but are working and taking private lessons with top teachers. Most still plan to go to graduate school, however.

L. Fortissimo

It's kind of overwhelming to think about when you are just starting out, but it's important to make sure your choices are pointed that direction, as far as undergraduate school/program/teacher choice, academics, networking at summer programs, competitions, even keeping up your standardized test skills for the graduate programs that require the GRE.