T990

Does anyone have a ranking of Music Schools, esp on line (link)? For instance, are all these schools in the same tier generally, or how would they be ranked or grouped?

Julliard
Curtis
New England Conservatory
Peabody
Eastman
Cleveland Institute of Music
Carnegie Mellon
Northwestern
Rice

MomofWildChild

T990- a lot of the ranking would depend on your instrument. Generally, Julliard and Curtis are considered to be in a class by themselves. Indiana should be high on the list. Northwestern is better in music theater than in most of the instruments/voice.

musicmom

Juilliard and Curtis are truly elite. Isn't J's acceptance rate about 8%?
Curtis is extremely selective but provides full scholarship to those admitted.

Have you visited www.unifiedapps.org?

lorelei2702

Curtis gives full tuition scholarship to those admitted, but there are no dormitories, and students rent apartments in the immediate vicinity. Keyboard and conducting students are given a piano to use for practice in their apartment. Other instrumentalists can be provided with instruments if theirs are inadequate. Competition for these slots is against students from all over the world and many are prodigies in their early teens. Pre-college students must make their own arrangements for academic work at local (private) schools (or possibly be homeschooled?) It is quite a unique situation.

It is not possible to rank the various conservatories, because they vary according to the instrument and the faculty. One may have the best tuba teacher, another the best oboe teacher, another the best conglomerate piano faculty. The main issue for the serious musician is the teacher, and smart students (i.e. those who will survive and progress) make their choices accordingly. At the same time, the musical standards are very high in all the elite conservatories, and the training is excellent.

The statistical likelihood of admittance varies greatly from instrument to instrument.

thumper1

>>The main issue for the serious musician is the teacher, and smart students (i.e. those who will survive and progress) make their choices accordingly. >>

This is VERY true. DS is attending a university program largely because of the teacher on his instrument. The second reason is he wanted the opportunity to study abroad which his conservatory acceptances did not offer.

I agree...Curtis and Juilliard are in a class by themselves. I think you could add Oberlin to your list also. It is usually included in the ranks with New England Conservatory and Peabody.

binx

I'll share our experience:

My S applied to 4 schools: Curtis, Juilliard, Cleveland Institute, and Cinncinati College Conservatory. He chose those schools after years of working a spread-sheet: Gathering advice and opinions from teachers he respected, etc. He based his choice on 1. teacher, 2. level of orchestra playing, 3. job placement after graduation for his instrument, 4. general reputation. He had no safeties -- In his opinion, since he wanted to be in performance, he needed to get top training, and said he'd rather take a year off than go elsewhere. (There were other schools that met these criteria, but for one reason or another, didn't make his list. For example, Rice - he didn't take SAT IIs. Indiana - he didn't want the liberal arts requirements. NEC - he didn't click with the teacher. This list might be completely different for a different instrument.)

He was admitted at all but Curtis. The teacher at Curtis and Juilliard is the same for his instrument. That teacher told S he would be happier at Juilliard, so didn't offer him admission to both. Of course, he is thrilled to be at Juilliard. The scholarship Juilliard gave him covers tuition, so financially it was a wash between the two.

Since my other S is in Philly (UPenn), I did like Curtis and the idea of having the boys in the same city. Especially since we are so far away. But they are only a couple hours from each other now.

My first choice for him was, actually, Cleveland Institute. I was nervous about NYC. And I really liked the CIM program and the teacher, and the audition process was so "kind". Everyone was friendly, they had special programs for the parents (we didn't attend the audition though,) they went out of their way to accomodate him since he was alone.... I think it was his 4th choice, though. And they offered the lowest scholarship. I saw that they just got a huge donation to build better facilities, realizing that they can't compete with the facilities they have now.

But we let S make the choice, and he is thriving where he's at.

My main advice would be to make a spread sheet for comparison, and to start early.

MomofWildChild

D applied to Cleveland Institute, Indiana, Rice, Oberlin, Julliard, NEC and BU. She was accepted everywhere but Julliard, where she blew her audition (Mom was glad....). She chose Rice, but also liked Cleveland (CIM) and Indiana a lot. Oberlin was "in the middle of a cornfield" and Indiana was "better for grad school". She did think Indiana's graduate opera program was better than Julliard's. Rice won out for academics and the voice teacher.

thumper1

DS applied to BU, NEC, U of North Texas, Peabody, the Hartt School, Duquesne and U of Maryland. He was accepted at all but U of Maryland. All had music faculty on his instrument who he REALLY felt he could study with and learn from. In the end, he chose BU over the others. The teacher was the main reason. He also made a decision that he wanted a conservatory for grad school, but not undergrad. AND as I mentioned earlier, BU offers a study abroad program for juniors which he will be doing in the fall. The facilities at BU are ....well...dreary, but they were like a castle compared to the dorm at NEC which was his other first choice. Also NEC does not guarantee housing after freshman year...which is pretty costly in Boston. He will look at conservatory programs for his graduate study.

MomofWildChild

Thumper, I was SO turned off by NEC. If the dorms were half as dreary as the rest of the place, I can't even imagine...... D wasn't half as put off as H and I were. She was looking at a dual-degree thing with Tufts that almost nobody is accepted to, but she changed her mind about it after applying. She did her audition at BU while she was at Tanglewood, which saved a trip.

calicomom

My d is a junior in hs hoping to major in vocal performance, has made it to all state last year and this year, too. She's had lessons since age 13, from a professor at a local state U. This year her hs has a new music teacher (new to teaching a hs too) and he wants her to switch from her current private voice teacher to a different teacher. Between this idea and those you suggested, I am sooo confused about where to turn! HOW does one find a "good" teacher of voice who won't do bad things to a student's voice? How do you know if the instruction is doing harm? Do you have any suggestions of questions to ask, criteria of any kind, anything to look for in a sample lesson, etc?

lorelei2702

calicomom: If your daughter is making in into allstate as sophmore and junior, her voice is gaining range, maturity, and projection,and she still loves singing and her lessons, think twice before she changes. Every change backs you up, new vocabulary, time of adjustment, etc., possibility of confusion. If, on the other hand, the sound is not as good, she seems to have a tired or strained voice, it takes awhile to get voice back after illness or overexertion, that is another matter. Your daughter's music teacher may have another agenda or just his own professional contacts. Is she afraid she will not get solo opportunities with choir if she does not study with his choice? It can get politcal, but she probably has quite a bit of capital with those all-state selections. Does your daughter's voice teacher belong to NATS? Does she participate in those activities and competitions? That would be another guideline. If you wish to send me a private e-mail as to exactly where you are and with whom she is studying, etc., I would be glad to check my professional sources. Good luck

mezzomom

Calicomom: I agree with Lorelei that you need to find out more about why the HS music teacher wants her to consider switching teachers. In my experience, that's an unusual request; one would think most music teachers would be thrilled that a student is receiving voice lessons. But I would be wanting more information from the music teacher, just in case the teacher thinks he's hearing something in your daughter's singing that is indicative of bad habits or something unhealthy.

Re: what to look for in a sample lesson (and I'm relating this more to your thread about college level voice programs)...my daughter is also a junior in HS who has had (only) one sample lesson at a college. I had no idea what *she* should look for either, and I just left the room after meeting briefly with the professor. I pretty much had to trust my daughter on this one, but I knew when she and the prof emerged from the hour they spent together, both laughing and joking, that at least one consideration has to be rapport. When I asked my daughter afterwards about some of the technical aspects of the lesson, my daughter was quite impressed that the professor had worked with her on an area of her singing that my daughter already knew needed improvement. The professor identified this weakness within 10 minutes of the lesson's start (and it wasn't a glaringly obvious flaw in her technique), and yet my daughter was able to make some very positive corrections by the end of the lesson. Plus this was all accomplished in a very supportive, positive way; my daughter felt uplifted rather than diminished by the constructive criticism. The icing on the cake was when the professor told my daughter in parting, "You must have a wonderful voice teacher. Tell her to keep doing what she's doing." Hope this helps...

binx

First, I admit ignorance about voice, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I am a piano teacher (or rather, WAS in the states); I tell my students up front that I will probably ask them to switch after about 3 years, give or take. I believe that each teacher brings something different to the table, and kids benefit from that.

I did not teach my own kids, but they did end up changing teachers every 3-4 years for one reason or another. My D had 5 years with her first violin teacher, and in retrospect, that was too long. My S is at Juilliard now (brass), and his teacher there told him the same thing -- That if S wanted Juilliard for grad school, too, he would have to go to a different teacher, because this teacher doesn't believe in teaching a student that long! Since S fought me tooth and nail when I made him switch piano teachers a few years ago, I felt vindicated! (He also admitted soon after it happened that I was right.)

So if your D has been with the same voice teacher since age 13 (and is now, what? 16 or 17?), the HS teacher may be seeing some gaps in knowledge or training. I think you need to ask the HS teacher exactly WHY she wants the change. Does she have someone in mind? Is it a personal friend (therefore, questionable motives) or just her knowledge of the industry -- That your D's particular teacher doesn't have a history of the right kind of results. Or perhaps she is noticing a weakness with your D that she thinks could be helped better elsewhere?

If you are afraid of switching teachers sight unseen (or unheard, as the case may be), one option that insults no one is to go to a summer camp for voice, and see what kinds of response she gets from a different teacher. Sometimes the camp teachers can offer fresh and welcome insight, or ever referrals.

You can also attend Master Classes, or have "trial" lessons at various near-by colleges. But whenever having another lesson by a different teacher, it is industry courtesy to seek permission first from your regular teacher.

lorelei2702

I would have to disagree, in part, with Binx. I have a DMA in vocal performance, pedagogy, and literature, I have more than 20 years of experience as a university level voice teacher, and I have been quite active in professional singing teacher organizations. It may be that change is part of the process in various instruments, but this is not a necessity for singers. Many of the finest singers have only had one technical "guru" voice teacher. [A successful teacher is training their students to leave them, and ambitious, talented students do go to other teachers when they go to university or conservatories. Many of these singers will check back in with their original teacher when home, the relationship never ends. When they go away, they will soon perceive whether they "needed" to move on vocally, and it is a natural time for a break.] They coach with various other people (meaning work musical style, language, interpretation, etc.), but for many, the original teacher grounded them vocally and keeps their vocal mechanism in line. Of course, if a singer develops problems while under direct tutelage it is another matter. A young singer should be gaining breath control, functional range, blending of registers, projection, warm and beauty of quality. [Singers are dependent on voice teachers for their entire careers, because they cannot hear themselves and they requite exterior monitoring. If these things are not happening, it may be time for a change.] Perhaps Calicomom should make the inquiries to the high school teacher as to why this suggestion is being made. There is also the issue of competition between various studios. Perhaps this hs teacher graduated from same school as voice teacher and studied with someone else. Calicomom can ask that kind of question, too.

Many summer programs at universities use graduate students for voice teachers. Make sure you would be getting an experienced voice teacher if you chose to do that.

wjb

I also respectfully disagree with Binx on the need for periodic changes of teacher for pre-college piano students. It may be a well-respected philosophy –- I’ve just not heard it before. My son is fortunate to study with one of the finest teachers of pre-college piano students in the country. This teacher accepts students by audition, and does dismiss some within a fairly short period. But otherwise, students stay with this teacher. Period. We would not dream of making a change until college.

Certainly if a talented child is not progressing the way he or she, the parents, or the current teacher think he or she ought to be progressing, it may be time for a change of teacher. But I disagree that change for the sake of change is always desirable.