lkf725

I think it depends upon the level of the teacher and student. Sometimes a really great teacher will admit that he has taught the student all he can and make contacts with other teachers that would be appropriate for the student. I don't believe that the suggestion to "move on" is given lightly or randomly.

lorelei2702

You are in excellent hands as a student of music when you have a teacher who does escort you to another, wiser, more advanced teacher. A person who knows and understands their own limitations is a quite a gem. For a singer, it is more likely that a really good technical teacher can go the duration, but better resources for coaching the repertory and roles will definitely be needed. Noone is an expert in all genres or languages. There is a major difference between those two kinds of pedagogical skills. The exception may be when the student is in a vocal Fach which has its own technical demands which the teacher may not be able to teach so well. In this case, study with someone from that Fach may be invaluable.

calicomom

Thanks everyone!
The idea of switching after 3 or so years does make sense. We did that with her piano teacher, although now she's had 5 years with teacher #2, and will stay with her for one more year (til she goes off to college). As for the hs music teacher, he hasn't said that he hears anything bad, just that this other person could take her further.
We will be going to a college next week and d will take a short private lesson (30 min) with one of the voice teachers there as part of the visit. I guess this will be a chance to hear an unbiased person tell my d if she is doing things right, or not, or whether she could do more if she had a different teacher... she has also applied for a couple of summer programs for voice, for the coming summer.

calicomom

I think my d is getting all that you list as desirable qualities, based on comments from friends who have heard her sing. The choir directors at our church think her vocie is sounding really great, using some of the terms you mentioned. So this is not about correcting a problem. D's hs teacher who wants d to switch private voice teachers seems to think that the teacher he'd like d to go to(I'll refer to this person as ovt: other voice teacher) will help d to get a top score at regionals next year. hs teacher says that ovt taught all four soloists at 2004 regionals, and that ovt could get her into more competitions. My concern is that ovt may be seeking to improve her own rep by grabbing the best local talent and then claiming they are good because of ovt! After all, if d already got into all state, twice, she must be doing it right already, right?

gadad

I've been "lurking" on this thread for some time and I really appreciate the breadth of insight that you all have. My D is a HS junior soprano who has won some statewide competitions - NATS advanced division, Governor's Honors Program, etc. She wants to study vocal performance in college, but has a wide range of other interests as well, so she's looking at both B.Mus. programs at good universities (e.g. Northwestern, Rice) and B.A. programs at Ivies and strong LACs with hopes that she might augment the Music degree with lessons and ensemble work. I'd love to get your take on an e-mail exchange I had with a member of the voice faculty at her favorite LAC. I asked this instructor, who has been very active as a performing soprano, to what extent my D could augment their B.A. program to create a performance emphasis in voice / opera as an option to a B.Mus. in performance. This is an excerpt from her reply:

"There are several ways to accomplish your daughter's desires here. First of all, she can take voice for credit every year she is here. If she is a scholarship winner as an entering freshman, she will be required to take for credit and perform on various
recitals as well as sing in an ensemble. We have an extremely strong concert choir and chamber singers where she can also audition for solos and go on tour. We encourage our voice students to participate in the NATS auditions held yearly and we also assist in their search for outside opportunities for competitions and performances. We offer larger scale opportunities from year to year depending upon the strength of the students at the time. For example, several years ago I was able to produce The Marriage of Figaro as I had a large class of seniors who were ready to perform such a work. This past fall, my studio put together a Broadway review entitled "From Sondheim to Bernstein" as I currently have quite a few theatre majors studying voice and there had also been many requests from the students to do music theatre. Currently our other artist associate will be producing a Gilbert & Sullivan review with her students in the spring. The theatre department will soon be announcing their musical production selection for next fall as they currently produce a musical every other year and I will be assisting as vocal coach. All this being said and knowing that your D would like to pursue performance, we would do our best to see that we shape her time here to allow her to perform as much as possible and provide her with the best course direction and preparation possible for a Masters program in voice.

"There is no denying the fact that in a BA degree program, your D will not have as much music in her daily schedule as she would in the BM degree at a large university or conservatory. One might also argue that such a program could place her at considerable disadvantage competing with those same students. I did say "could" but not "would" as the difference is up to the student. There is also no denying the fact
that the same conservatory or university music student could also not be as educated nor likely as articulate as the BA major from here.

"We have had several students go on to Master's programs especially in musicology. One of my recent graduates (who could have chosen opera) is pursuing theatre/music theatre quite successfully and I currently have two students auditioning for summer music theatre programs. Music degree programs around the country, both undergraduate and graduate, are extremely diverse and students should go first where there is an excellent applied teacher with sound pedagogy. The next consideration should be the strength of the overall program as well as the reputation of the institution itself. Likewise, your D's chances for acceptance into a performance program at any graduate school will depend largely upon the development of her own vocal talent. I can promise you that if she studies voice with me, the vocal technique and training she will receive will be as good as any institution offers - regardless of size or reputation."

There is no doubt that my D's internal motivation would provide the commitment necessary to follow through on the applied voice on a non-credit basis. Music and singing are as essential to her daily life as air and water. How would you assess this route as an option for a student who wants it both ways, academically and musically?

thumper1

"There is no denying the fact that in a BA degree program, your D will not have as much music in her daily schedule as she would in the BM degree at a large university or conservatory. One might also argue that such a program could place her at considerable disadvantage competing with those same students. I did say "could" but not "would" as the difference is up to the student.>>

Actually that depends on the program and the musical instrument (I consider voice an instrument). We are also looking for a good college or university program where DD can continue her playing and studying (in her case on oboe). The school that WAS her favorite quickly dropped down. They have a music performance major a the college, and only one instrumental ensemble....an orchestra. While they "say" that DD will have "opportunities" to perform, the reality is that an orchestra will have two, maybe three oboe players. She (and we) find it hard to believe that those seats would in reality be given to a non-performance major regardless of the talent level. It is very wise to look for the numbers of ensembles, the numbers of students who are NOT performance majors who are in those ensembles, and also the level of the ensembles (e.g. if your aspiring musician has been playing at a high level, and they are now going to be offered a position in the least accomplished group on campus...that might not be what they really want). Now...in regards to looking for these programs....for EVERY college visit, DD has also spoken to someone in the music department (either the music adcom or the private music teacher or an ensemble director) to get the lay of the land. Believe me, they are very honest in their discussions. At one school (and not one with a particularly notable music department, I might add), DD asked if she could do any instrumental music study or playing. They responded in one word..."no". She scratched that school from her list. One thing that has been helpful for us is tips we got from her oboe teachers (both the summer one and her regular oboe teacher) about programs that they know of that will allow her to continue to play. BTW...this kid is a good player....principal oboe in the All State orchestra (as a junior this year), plays in two precollege programs (as principal oboe), was asked to play in a two college ensembles this year (schedule prohibited it but it was nice to be asked). She wants to play, loves doing it...but she does NOT want to major in music of any kind (although she has considered some music related fields...music technology, marketing, arts management...). Another thing we have found is that in MOST cases we would have to pay additional fees for her private lessons at the college level.

dancersmom

Gadad,

"There is no doubt that my D's internal motivation would provide the commitment necessary to follow through on the applied voice on a non-credit basis."

Does your D want to take voice on a non-credit basis? The teacher you e-mailed from her favorite LAC said that she could take voice for credit all 4 years. This school sounds like it would a very viable option for your D. As I suggested to you on a different thread, set up a private lesson with this teacher. The relationship with the private teacher should be, IMHO, the most important thing to look at in considering any music program. If your D feels a rapport with this teacher and she likes the liberal arts component of the school's curriculum, this may be the perfect place for her.

As Thumper says, "in MOST cases we would have to pay additional fees for her private lessons at the college level." This is true at many schools regardless of whether or not your child is majoring in music. Because the instruction is one on one, private lessons are more expensive for schools to provide than say, English Comp courses that have very large enrollments. I'd venture to say that most schools ask private music students to pay a surcharge for their lessons. Another thing to be aware of is that many music departments require that students pay for their own accompanists. Some schools provide student accompanists free of charge. The pianists do accompanying duty as part of their scholarship requirements. But, many schools don't have the funds to give enough piano majors scholarships to cover all of the accompanying needs. At those schools, singers and instrumentalists pay for their own accompanists. Singers usually need the accompanists more frequently than instrumentalists. My D, who is a musical theatre major, is required to have her accompanist present at every voice lesson and is expected to have her accompanist present at at least one practice session each week.

gadad

Dancersmom - My D would like to take other courses and/or double major, so she may wish to "save up" her available academic credits that she might allocate to those areas. The points about the cost of lessons and accompanyists are very helpful since we're going to visit the campus in a week and a half, so I'll be sure to ask.

One possible concern about the route that I've described above is that in most fields, one would be pushed along, instructed and inspired by the quality of one's peers. This would certainly be true for a theatre major who would learn from and have their own performance enhanced by highly-talented peers. I would imagine that the talent pool in the BA program in a LAC would be quite different from those at a high-profile B.Mus program. I don't know if this is as great a concern with classical voice, since the instruction and performance are most often solo?

shennie

gadad: I am speaking as the parent of an instrumentalist, not a voice major. However, the level of the other students around you, no matter what your major, WILL have an impact on you. Instruction is not always one-on-one. Most studios of all instruments and voice have studio classes, which all members of the studio are required to attend on a weekly basis. Students take turns each week performing for the class, with everyone usually having to perform at least once each semester, sometimes more often. After you perform your piece, the class critiques you as well as the teacher. I think the difference of being in the middle of the pack rather than at the top is more psychological in this sense in that it can motivate students to work really hard to be as good as others they hear around them.

Also, I imagine that a part of the training in classical voice WILL require small ensemble singing. And the ensemble will only be as good as the weakest member. That being said, if your daughter is not interested in being in a conservatory program, she may find that she is not very happy if she goes that route. Every kid is so individual. I will also say that my son found that there was no school that had everything he wanted. So he went for the teacher and has had no regrets.

thumper1

Just an aside re: the college requirement/possibilities for non-majors who still want to pursue music study of an instrument (voice included)...You need to ask if there is an ensemble requirement or a studio class requirement. DD has found a variety of answers to this question. Every school she has queried has recommended participation in an ensemble, but only one requires it and that is only if you receive a scholarship (which this particular school awards for non-majors). Re: studio class...When dd asked this question, she was told that if she majors or minors in music she MUST attend studio class. However if she is taking lessons aside from other participation in the music department, she does not have to enroll in the studio class. DD says she would want to be in an ensemble. While she likes studying the instrument, she also wants a medium to USE that which she has learned. And Shennie makes a good point...the quality of the other players is important (especially, IMHO, if you come from ensembles of high quality). Re: payment for lessons....DS is a performance major who like Shennie's son went for the program which had the teacher he wanted to study with. He applied to 7 schools...NONE charged a fee for private lessons for their music majors. He looked at an additional 7 schools. NONE charged a fee for private lessons for music majors. ALL charged for lessons for non-majors, if they even allowed them to pursue private lessons. SO...you need to ask that question if it is a concern. And I can't emphasize more the need to take a lesson with the prospective teacher if that is at all a possibility. Remember also, that as a non-major you are less likely to get the "premier" instructor on your instrument as the majors will be assigned to studios first...you will be later. At some larger universities (U of Maryland, for example)....if you are not a performance major, your private lessons are taught by graduate students.

dancersmom

Thumper1,

It is good to know that there are many music programs out there that do not levy a surcharge for private music lessons. Maybe charging an additional fee for private lessons is just the custom in my neck of the woods. I paid a surcharge for my older D's trombone lessons at the major state university she attended. She was a performance major. My H and I both paid a surcharge above and beyond the fulltime tuition rate for private lessons when we were music majors back in the dark ages I just looked at the website for the music dept. of the state U. closest to us. There is a surcharge for all private lessons. My younger D, who attends school in Florida, does not have to pay extra for her voice lessons, but she does have to pay for her accompanist. My older D did not have to pay accompanist fees at her school. The piano majors earned their scholarships by accompanying other students.

lorelei2702

The prevailing attitude is that instrumentalists have to buy their instruments, singers have to buy (pay) their accompanists. The trick around this is to attend a school which has a collaborative piano program (accompanying) where the students are required to log many hours learning the repertory they will accompany. A particular irritation to me is that students, representing their university, are required to pay accompanist to do competitions off campus, but the school is quite eager to claim them in their publicity. Sometimes these same accompanists are missing their regular assignment of playing for the lessons of that same musician. No football team requires the players to pay the trainer to tag along!

thumper1

>>instrumentalists have to buy their instruments, singers have to buy (pay) their accompanists>>

Both of my kiddos are instrumentalist. They had to pay for their instruments AND they have to pay for accompaniests whenever they need them. DS has a jury each semester (pays for the pianist). He is playing a sophomore recital (optional...he wants to do this), and has to pay for the pianist for rehearsals and the performance. The piano students in the music program DO charge a very modest fee...but it's not free.

lorelei2702

I stand corrected. That observations was from a piano faculty member, subsequently a dean at major music school. However, it cold be noted that during the current audition season, only the NYC conservatories (and Curtis) required pianist for string auditions. At many schools, accompanists are provided for most degree recitals, however, and many schools provide accompanists for lessons, the only way they can be assured of quality of musicians in the studio during lessons.

gadad

Lorelei, as a college voice professor and a professional in the field, what's your opinion of the route I proposed in post # 67 above? Do you see major pros and/or cons? - Bruce