actressfosho

I asked about this on the theatre thread and didn't get many opinions so I decided to ask here. I am going to audition for some acting conservatories this winter but have been thinking it might be smarter to go to my fallback school first year where I am guaranteed a full scholarship and maybe more. If I do that I can just perform and get all the general education classes the different conservatories require done and then transfer the next year. I see a big advantage in doing that if it works out because I would be able to only concentrate on theatre when I transfer. My question is if I get accepted to some conservatories and don't go, will they hold it against me when I audition the next year? Do they even remember who auditioned for them from year to year? I was just reading the Tisch Live Journal blog and somebody that is doing this was asking questions and it has me thinking (maybe too much) again.

chrism

Be careful about planning for transferring. It has been mentioned on this board before that at many schools one has to enter as a freshman even if you are a transfer. I'm not that familiar with this issue, but just wanted to raise it so you can search this forum for posts on the issue. You might start here:


Question about transfer, please help!!!!

Good luck.

actressfosho

Thanks. I know that I would have to start as a first year in a program if I did that and at every school except Tisch where you can finsh in 3 years would put me in five years of college instead of 4. The difference would be that I would have all my general education classes done and could only concentrate on theatre for 4 years which would be super cool. If I do this I probably would not declare theatre as a major but would go undeclared just to get the gen eds done. At my fallback school you don't have to be a declared theatre major to be in shows and there is a small time regional theatre and some community theatres I could work with. I do know that it doesn't matter at Carnegie Mellon because they make acting majors take a general education class every semester no matter how much transfer credit you have so I will definately go ahead and go there if I get in.

soozievt

I can't answer all of your questions but I don't think the plan of getting all your "gen ed" classes out of the way so you can enter a BFA program and just do the BFA classes for three years is going to work at all schools. You already mentioned CMU. Each school has DIFFERENT liberal arts requirements so this "gen ed" that you talk about does not apply to all schools. Boston Conservatory has CERTAIN courses in humanities each semester that would differ from your "gen ed" you'd take some place. They probably would still want you to take these each year you were in their program. Even Tisch has certain liberal arts distribution requirements that may differ from whatever gen ed you are doing some place else. If you had to start over as a freshman and go to school five years, I don't see that being that great of a plan either just so you can "concentrate" on theater. At MANY of these BFA programs, theater IS about 75% of your coursework. You WILL be mostly concentrating on theater. At some schools (it varies) you may just be taking ONE liberal arts course per semester. Look into EACH program specifically and don't generalize as it will differ a LOT. Also, before you embark on this plan, look into the BFA programs you are interested in and find out IF they take transfers....some do, some do not. If you've been to college for year, most will not let you audition as an entering "freshman" but will consider you a transfer student (even if they make you start as a freshmen in the course work). Also, as an aside, do you want to skip a year of training the year right before you are auditioning for a BFA program? You might be better off continuing in your training all along. In any case, please know that "gen eds" is not the same from BFA school to BFA school and that transferring and who allows it and what year you'd be considered when you entered, all varies a lot. Do not come up with this general plan without running it by each BFA program you are interested in so that you won't be out of luck next year when you find out your plan might not work at some of these places. Also, are your parents willing to pay for five years of college when the same can be done in four?

Susan

actressfosho

All the conservatories I’m interested in take transfers. I have looked at the gen ed requirements for acting majors at Tisch, SUNY Purchase, NCSA, Webster and CCM Drama. They differ slightly but most require one course in each of the following:

English/Writing - I scored a 4 on AP English and it covers this at every school except Tisch.
US History – I’m taking this as an AP this year and they all accept credit for a 3 except Tisch which requires a 4.
European History – Always available at my fallback.
World History or Other Cultures – Always available at my fallback.
Arts/Humanities – Always available at my fallback.
Science – I scored a 4 on AP Biology last year which covers this requirement at all of them.
Social Sciences – I’m taking AP Psychology this year and a 3 covers this at every school but Tisch which accepts a 4.
Math – I dropped AP Calc because I didn’t have time to deal with it along with my training and rehearsal schedule, but this requirement is easily covered at the schools that require math with College Algebra which is always available at my fallback.
Most also require 4 or 5 electives. I should be able to get one of those covered with AP French that I’m taking this year.

So, unless I crash and burn on my AP exams I would have about 8 classes at most that I would need to take to cover the gen eds. I could get this done easily if I go to my fallback and take another 2 classes that would cover the variants. I already have a full scholarship because of my SATs and I will also get room and board, a free laptop and a stipend if I make National Merit Finalist so it won’t cost my parents any extra money. Actually, my father is becoming more insistent on me doing this because he has seen how stressed out and mean I get when I juggle a full academic load with the training at my performing arts high school.

Don’t get me wrong. I DO think all the gen ed stuff is important and gives an actor more to draw from, but it is a matter of WHEN it is best done for me. I KNOW I don’t like doing them and training at the same time. I liked the way the person on the Tisch blog put it when she said, “The reason I'm taking this year to get my Ged Eds as done as possible is that I want to be free to completely throw myself into training without having to suddenly switch gears to study Macroeconomics or some such. LOL” I feel her because that is EXACTLY the type of thing that is driving me crazy this year.

BUT … My main question is if I get accepted to some conservatories and don't go, will they hold it against me when I audition the next year? I’m trying to decide if I should cancel all my auditions except for Carnegie Mellon and Juilliard.

alwaysamom

Just a couple of comments about the 'gen eds' at Tisch. Although you may get credit for some of your APs, they are not always applied to get you out of required courses. My D knows several kids who have had a problem with this. The other thing I wanted to mention is that at Tisch with the studio set up, you'll be immersed in drama regardless. You're in studio three days a week from 9-6 and in upper years for longer hours than that. There are required Tisch academic classes which you won't be able to get out of, e.g, theatre studies and theatre production, etc. The 'throwing yourself into' theatre is what everyone at Tisch does and the vast majority of kids there will be taking the required extras and a good percentage double major so any extra 'throwing yourself into' theatre really isn't all that likely because it's not like there are extra theatre classes you can take. Am I making sense with that explanation? Hopefully. And lastly, finishing at Tisch in three years may be possible but I don't know that it's preferable to four, other than the financial savings. You'll be missing things in fourth year that you might not necessarily want to be missing, like a year of training at another studio. Many kids do the StoneStreet studio as their extra. Or further dance or vocal training in addition to the practicum in fourth year. Internships are also very popular in fourth year because of the wonderful contacts they establish.

soozievt

Actressfosho....you can't compare what it is like for you now in HS with what it will be like in a BFA program in terms of juggling the courseload. In high school, you are taking the full array of presumably five academic core subjects AND doing training (and electives and such). In a BFA program about 75% of the time is training (varies a bit at each college) and so while you are doing SOME liberal arts, it is not like a full time academic load. It is more like a full time theater mode with a little bit of liberal arts (again varies program to program).

My D goes to Tisch/CAP21. One thing I knew going into college was that she would be able to handle the LONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG hours and schedule she has there. My daughter has something scheduled right now all day long, every night and every weekend in college. But she ALSO had a schedule like that in high school (she did not have a performing arts high school and so did all this training every afternoon, every night and weekend). In both very full schedules, she still had to fit in homework (late at night, whatever) and gets excellent grades. It sounds like you are also an excellent student taking a demanding schedule. If you have been able to handle this very busy life and still be a good student, believe me, you can handle the schedule at a place like Tisch or these other programs. My daughter is still getting A's so far in academics. I think the reasons you are giving for this plan don't really fit the situation. I am not sure if you understand what it would be like in a BFA program. At many, you would not be taking a heavy load of liberal arts courses while training. You'd be taking either one or two at many schools in a semester. You WOULD be primarily focused on theater.

Susan

PS, I did not see AlwaysAMom's terrific post when I wrote this one. But she also brings up that at Tisch, SOME of your liberal arts courses, including the ones that freshmen are required to take ARE about theater. They have homework, etc. They are not "training" type classes. You'd still have to take those "study" type classes if you go there. You would be immersed in theater at Tisch. Your studio days are full time three days/week but you will likely be engaged in theater things every night too.

ckp

actressforsho- I'm sure you have reseaarched this and are pretty set, but I don't know how good of an idea it is. I am going through possibly transfering and I think that it is a lot more stress than nessesary and would not wish the situation on anyone.

Why not just audition to all your schools and then dedicate yourself to a school completly, switching conservatories will be a major shock and it will take some time to adjust to the second one. Also if you are going to be taking so many gen eds AND performing at your first school, how do you know you will have the time to practice for auditions? It may also be hard on you and your fellow classmates who are there and love it if youare only there to get your gen eds out of the way.

I hope you are not under the impression that the few gen eds that are required take a lot away from theatre. All of those schools are top and I'm sure that even with the exra couple classes a semester your life WILL be consumed by theatre in a way you never could have imagined!!! It's amazing, and I don't want you to miss out because some girl on lj is doing it and seems pretty sure about it. Also, transfering is not easy! It may even be harder then getting in out of high school.

I hope I haven't offended you, I just don't want you to make a mistake. Maybe this is right for you, but really think it through first!!!

Sporti2005

speaking as someone who is sort of in this situation -- let me tell you that it is definitely not easy.

i auditioned for MT last year, and didn't get in anywhere except for once conservatory in NYC that i really really didn't want to go to that my mom made me audition for, and i decided not to go there. i came to the school i am at now (which has a very well-respected MT program) with the intention that after one year, i would either transfer into MT here or somewhere else.

now, after seeing the program here from the outside, i have decided to not even audition at the school i am at now, despite its reputation. i am auditioning for 2 schools i applied to last year (one i was waitlisted and one i didn't finish my audition because i got hit with some nasty food poisoning), and a handful of others.

IT IS SO HARD TO DEAL WITH PREPARATION FOR AUDITIONS, RE-COMPLETING APPLICATIONS, DEALING WITH THE NEW WORKLOAD, AND ADJUSTING TO YOUR FIRST YEAR OF COLLEGE ALL AT THE SAME TIME. honestly, i had no idea how hard it would be to get everything done. i am managing fine because the academics here aren't challenging for me, but also taking time off from school to go to auditions is going to be tough.

on top of all of that, i have a new group of friends here who i love, and who i'm going to be leaving after this year. that's an entire social stress that has hardly been mentioned. fitting in in college isn't easy for anyone, and the idea of doing it twice is daunting, but considering my situation i am willing to do it.

please consider seriously whether you really want to go to your fallback school. since it IS a fallback, not only is it a possibility that you will be frustrated with the level of academics (which i am here, it is academically not as challenging as i'd like), but you will have to re-situate yourself in a new community 12 short months later.

just thought i'd give you a view from the inside,
maggie

soozievt

Maggie, how wonderful of you to come on as a student actually IN this situation (ckp too). I think you can say it peer to peer better than any of us.

I recognize you from another forum we have both posted on and so I know your situation a bit and I am rooting for you as you are really being proactive about your goals. I hope you will hang out here (when you have time!!) and keep us abreast of your process. Good luck.
Susan

fishbowlfreshman

Actressfosho,
I guess I was the one who responded to you on Theatre/Drama and must have misunderstood the intent of your question. I’m going to go against the grain here and say that I think what you’re considering is an excellent idea – especially if you can get paid to do it. I’m sure the maintenance level of the GEs in the various colleges and conservatories differs to some degree, but I know that at my school, I’m constantly up into the wee hours of the morning studying and writing long papers for non-theatre related courses and often have to go into my morning theatre classes tired and irritable as the result. My feeling is that you don’t really operate to your fullest potential in either area when you do that and there is no amount of good time management that will prevent it. Also keep in mind that we still have adolescent bodies and minds that need around eight hours of sleep to function properly which just isn’t going to happen on most BFA schedules if you have to take a full compliment of GEs. To illustrate, here is a freshman schedule from NCSA that someone posted on Theatre/Drama last year:

Monday
8:00-8:50—Critical Perspectives
9:00-9:50—Geology
11:30-1:00—Acting
2:00-3:30—Voice Tutorials
3:45-5:15—Movement

Tuesday
10:15-11:30—Acting Workshop
11:30-1:00—Combat
2:00-3:30—Acting
3:45-5:15—Voice

Wednesday
8:00-8:50—Critical Perspectives
9:00-9:15—Geology
11:00-12:30—Dance
2:00-3:30—Voice
3:45-5:15—Film Seminar

Thursday
10:15-11:30—Combat
11:30-1:00—Acting
2:00-3:30—Acting Workshop
3:45-5:15—Movement

Friday
8:00-8:50—Critical Perspectives
9:00-9:50—Geology
11:30-1:00—Dance
2:00-3:30—Acting
3:45-5:15—Voice

Keep in mind that the schedule doesn’t include the fact that you would be working crew until 11:00 p.m. a lot of nights. When are you going to study? After midnight? Yeah … I thought so. Now … think of how much saner your life would be if you were able to not have to take the 8:00 and 9:00 a.m. MWF classes. Your AP English and Biology will get you out of those two particular requirements, but there are still a lot more to go. I will say that I understand the GEs at NCSA to be taught on about the level of your average community college, so any idiot ought to be able to pass them with ease, but wouldn’t you learn more if you took them on a respected university level before entering serious training? However, there is no way anyone is going to convince me that they wouldn’t constitute a drain considering the rest of the schedule and the intensity of their actor training if you’re a perfectionist like me and insist on making a 4.0 at all costs.

As for transfer auditions … The way I understand it is that NCSA and SUNY Purchase couldn’t care less about where you were the previous year as long as you have your high school diploma or GED and aren’t a convicted felon. For them, it’s all about the audition. I can’t say I’m sure about the rest, but I doubt it matters much except maybe at Tisch. As for whether they would hold it against you if you were accepted, turned them down, and showed up to audition again the next year … I hope not! I turned down a good conservatory last year to take a full scholarship elsewhere and they’re about to see me again next month. I’ll let you know how it turns out …

I do agree with ckp and Sporti that once you’re in a place, it will be difficult to leave the friends you make behind. I’m personally leaving my school as soon as finals are over not to return and will be finishing off my GEs at a college near my home next semester. I'm going to miss some people tremendously, but I do already have a group of friends that go to my new school. It’s also crawling with Ivy rejects that want to transfer, so that’s not a problem. I also agree that it would be difficult to prepare for auditions if you’re participating in productions at the school, so it would be wise to not audition for anything that is going to be running or in rehearsal from January through March. Definitely consider auditioning for the schools a long way from where you'll be at the Unifieds, too, so you won't miss much school time.

Dang ... I just wasted a lot of time writing this opposing viewpoint! Not. Effective. Time. Management. Back to the books!

actressfosho

alwaysamom – One of the things I like about Tisch is the way they train 3 days a week and do the academics on the other days. It seems like things wouldn't get in the way as much. Also, I expect to take the academic theatre classes. Those are part of the major. It is the gen eds that it would be nice to exempt. I found the registration handbooks that say which AP credits Tisch accepts. http://students.tisch.nyu.edu/object/reg05.html If they live by that, you can only apply 8 credits (2 classes or only 1 if you take the science credit) towards the gen eds but you can use the rest as electives up to 32 hours (7 or 8 classes). Are there any other barriers I'm missing? On the blog I read they were talking about ways of getting out of “Writing the Essay” with transfer credits and one of the students has a name for the class I can't put on here. She said it “eats your soul a little, but it’s not too bad.” She said she despised it at first because she wanted to spend her time on her studio stuff and complained about it eating up her time in her personal journal. Is that the way most kids at Tisch feel about it?

Susan – My high school is a precollege training program and it does compare to what you get in a college BFA program. Most drama kids take 2 or 3 academic classes senior year and train the rest of the day. We always have to juggle things and “rob Peter to pay Paul” between our art areas and academics or go sleepless so I have a good idea about how it will be. Graduates that come back to visit always comment on how the crazy schedule is like what they get at the conservatories. Your daughter’s schedule at Tisch isn’t like some of the other conservatories. Most are more like the NCSA schedule that fishbowlfreshman posted.

ckp – I’m not offended but I’m not talking about switching conservatories. I would be going to a regular college and not even declaring a theatre major first year if I do this. Do you have any stats or whatever that show that it is harder to get in as a transfer or is that just the way you are feeling right now? You are also only going to transfer if you get cut from DePaul, right? Are you sure your stress level isn’t coming more from the possibility of getting cut and having nowhere to go than the applications and auditions? I hope all goes well and you don't have to worry about it. What you are going through is why won't audition for DePaul. That cut system is totally unfair.

Maggie – It is my fallback but it is also a pretty good honors college so the academics would be okay.

Fishbowlfreshman – That schedule looks like what graduates from my school that go to conservatories come back and describe. I sent you a PM and would really like to know where you are and why you are leaving. If you still don't want to say, is it any of these schools? Carnegie Mellon, Juilliard, SUNY Purchase, NCSA, Tisch, Webster or CCM Drama?

soozievt

Actressfosho...I can't answer all the AP questions but it was a big topic at a parent presentation on parent weekend at Tisch and you really need to talk to someone there about your assumptions or understandings and situation. It may or may not be what you think. My D was not using any AP credits plus she graduated after junior year of high school in three years.

As far as Writing the Essay, there ARE kids who complain about it, my D says. She says she can't see WHY. She really likes it. My daughter is a writer. She is currently exceling in the course, likes the instructor, and says some of the kids's writing does need improvement (they do peer reviews also). I have a feeling you can't get out of this class. It is based on topics in the arts and she likes it. As with any college, you need to talk to many students to get their impressions and not any one single student. If you talked to mine, you'd find a very happy camper. Perhaps if you ask another kid, they might moan about the class.

I realize you already have a grueling schedule where you must juggle. That is what I meant in my earlier posts. You ALREADY are able to juggle this kind of life and you will be able to again in a BFA program.

As far as the Tisch schedule not being like other conservatories....

I'll give you a view of my D's schedule which right now has her out all day, all night, seven days per week plus homework and she is not even in shows yet (freshmen cannot be in productions). She is even having schedule conflicts and can't even do all the things she could be in (she is not going to be able to rehearse and perform with her CAP class at Lincoln Center this week as she is on crew all week and in another performance, as one example).

Classes....three days per week are 9-6 at CAP (mind you there are long walks in NYC to get to all these things, that I am not adding in). Two days per week she has academic classes 11-3:15.

While it does not apply to everyone, she is also a Tisch Scholar and she has to go to that every other Friday night 6-9 (even has had schedule conflicts with that as she has lots going on). As a Tisch Scholar, she must do community service/internship in the arts in NYC 15 hours per semester. It so happened that my D started an internship and besides her internship hours, she was hired to work for them and besides her training, and interning, she now is working in a MT program and getting paid....she worked all day yesterday (Sat. and after class this past Monday and before classes this past Wed.) She happened to have a job all last night too.

Crew...freshmen have required crew assignments. Two weeks she has had it every single night and matinees and evenings on weekends. This coming week is one of those grueling weeks where she must add that into the mix.

Performance group.....I realize not all kids have this but most are involved in SOMETHING and she is in a select coed a capella group called N'Harmonics. She has to rehearse two nights per week (one of these is quite late) and then there are also performances....one weekend at Georgetown, one at Brown, one night at a club in the village, concerts like one late this Thursday night, and she is even missing a day trip today with them to perform at a country club out of the city because she was asked to be the pianist for auditions today for The Full Monty for the student run GAP show. She has that all afternoon and then three hours of rehearsal for her group tonight.

Add to that some social times and homework that is written but also preparation of songs/scenes for studio classes, she barely sleeps, lol. If you love this stuff, they you love what goes with it though it is tiring. The schedue at Tisch is not that different than other BFA programs other than how the classes are arranged....they have the condensed three full days of studio whereas other schools have the studio and academic classes mixed on each day. ALL programs have LONG hours of classes, then rehearsals, or crew, homework, etc. etc. I really believe if you handle all this stuff now, you will in college too. The reasons you gave for your plan of going to one school first to get academics out of the way so that you can just concentrate on training is not one I would espouse. You WILL be concentrating mostly on theater at many of these BFA programs. But you ALSO are used to this kind of schedule and juggling and sound like you excel and so I would not worry if you can do it in college. My D is and I can tell you can too. You are obviously a very good student. Talk to kids in these programs if you can.

Susan

alwaysamom

actressfosho, I agree with Susan that you should give NYU a call, preferably someone at Tisch, and discuss this 'gen ed' issue with them directly. They will be able to tell you what has happened in the past with individuals being given credit for APs and college courses. Usually, transfer credits will not be assessed until after you're accepted for transfer, you accept the transfer, and meet with an advisor. This has been the experience of a few friends of my D at NYU.

WTE is infamous at NYU, as every NYU student must take it. Most, but not all, kids hate it. My D was one who did not hate it, similar to Susan's D. She is a writer, she's published a couple of plays, writing is probably equi-important to her as her drama. She found the Tisch version of WTE very interesting and she loved the professor and TA she had for her recitation. It's very arts related and it encouraged her to get out and explore the city's museums (even more than she had in the past). The only way you can get out of WTE (this was the rule when my D applied in 2002, check with Tisch to see if it's changed) is if you have taken at least two academic writing classes at a college prior to transferring. These must be writing specific courses, not just writing intensive. So, in other words, a typical college English course would not qualify.

You obviously have given this plan a lot of thought and I respect you greatly for that. It's admirable. I really hope that you think about all that has been discussed here, though, especially if you are interested in Tisch and are accepted there. Turning down an offer and waiting a year then applying/auditioning as a transfer, simply to eliminate the need to take a few classes, isn't a plan that I would recommend to anyone. I'm not sure of the statistics for transfer admission but anecdotally, over the years, I have only seen evidence that it is more difficult than freshman admission. There are a limited number of spots in these classes and unless there is attrition to any great degree, there will be very limited openings.

My main concerns, as I explained initially, about missing fourth year, are that you will be missing out on potentially very important aspects of your education and experience and I think that would be unfortunate. I wish you the best of luck on your journey and hope that it all works out well for you.

soozievt

I hope you do take the advice of checking in with Tisch itself about the course requirements, AP, etc. if this is a school you are considering.

Do talk to kids who have taken the writing course. My D and AlwaysaMom's D are just two kids. My D sounds similar to AlwaysAMom's D and perhaps they may not be typical since others do not like taking the writing course. Like her D, mine is a writer. She's won awards in writing and this is her forte. If she were not so passionate about being a musical theater performer, I'd say writing was her other calling. She has written musicals over the years and still would love to do that at some point. The chances of making it on stage are difficult and I know writing is another talent she can use and loves. She likes that the professor gives her feedback on her writing and she likes the topics. She even has felt affirmation when getting graded, her first college writing assignments. She feels positive about the course.

AlwaysAMom brings up an important point that I also would be concerned about and that is that the admit rate for transfers seems tougher odds than for freshmen at most of the BFA programs. The odds are tough as it is, I can't see making them tougher unless it is unavoidable because you started in a school that is not right and had to transfer. But choosing to transfer from the get go seems like putting yourself in a tougher "chances" pool at those selective BFA programs you are considering. Please check with each school about their admit rate or numbers of transfers they take each year before embarking on this plan. I don't want you to be disappointed later to find out it was not what you thought. The more information you have now, the better it will be for you as I can tell you are giving this all a lot of thought and commend you for that!

Susan