musicalthtrmom

Chrism...
I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings by that statement. It was not my intention. The process was not all positive for my D either. A year ago, she would not have predicted that she would be a Voice major now at UM. She wanted MT, "do or die." But with some rejection and some acceptance in the process, she came to choose UM as the best place to build the skills she wanted, even though it meant turning down the MT degree she thought she HAD to have. I know she was lucky to at least have choices (MT or Voice) , even though they weren't the choices she wanted in the beginning. But I do believe the process brings growth in some form or another. We didn't have to face no acceptances at all. So I cannot totally relate to that scenario. But I do believe with all disappointments in life, they can allow us to grow, take a deeper look at our goals, and either reaffirm our commitment to try again, or take a right or left turn down another road.

Hope I didn't offend again.

chrism

I appreciate the thoughts, and the reason why I wrote was the statement:
"our children would (somehow!) end up where they should", which to a kid who wasn't accepted and faced 8-10 rejections means that they ended up where they "should" have, ie not in an MT program.

And I don't believe that, actually. Yes, there is growth with rejection, but I simply don't believe that a kid who wasn't accepted "ended up where they should have". I think it's an unfortunate message to send these kids. That was my only point.

And since it's a thread on "what I wish I had known", I personally wish that the kids who were not accepted had kept posting, to provide some balance to the next crop of students. I have a feeling that the ones who did not get good results quietly limped away from the board.

theatermom

I don't want to speak for Musicalthtrmom or say that this is what she meant, but along the same lines, I believe that kids DO end up with a result that is best for them IN THE LONG RUN. We all think our kids are talented and many are. I know that the spots available for majoring in Musical Theater are limited and so it is comforting to think that if your child is not admitted, that it is only because there aren't enough spots. But sometimes, and I know this is hard to accept, the truth is that the student, while talented, really is not as talented as those who WERE accepted and maybe not talented enough to seriously consider pursuing MT as a long term career choice. And I believe that the proliferation of Musical Theater programs at the college level is NOT necesarily a good thing. I think many schools are developing these programs to meet the market demand they see and view it as another way to have more students attend their schools. Whether or not they will be able to develop quality training programs remains to be seen. What is known is that there are VERY FEW people who make a living in this business. Many of them have never set foot inside a college MT class and if you look at those who have gone to college for MT and who have achieved some level of success, the vast majority of them (and please notice that I did NOT say ALL!) come from the top tier schools discussed at length in this forum. And you have to know that the vast majority of the kids in even THOSE programs do not go on to the point where they can make a living as performers. Hard to hear and accept? You bet. And while no one wants to crush their child's dreams or squelch their passion, at some point, someone in the know, preferably someone who knows them and cares about them very much, needs to tell them that maybe they need a fallback plan, that maybe going to the the 50th best MT program in the country is NOT better than not going for MT at all.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really DO care about these kids. I wouldn't still be here reading and writing to so many of you if I didn't care. I just feel like a little dose of reality is called for now and then.....

And, as one of my favorite comedians and a very smart guy, Dennis Miller, says, "And afterall, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong........"

razorback1

there are so many reasons why some kids don't get accepted into a certain program. So many of the success stories of today were not in an mt program, didn't get accepted or approved of or any number of things. I guess you meant well, but, I sure don't agree. this post implies that if a kid did not get into the program they applied to, then they just don't have the talent. that's just not the case. Yes, sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't. I don't think anyone here can pretend to determine that. There are just too many variables involved in this audition process...the song selection, the type of program, the school requirements, the parent's knowledge about the process, the naivete of parents or student, a sick auditioner, judges at the end of a long day, a song overdone, hundreds of factors. I just think it's kind of cruel to imply that any of these kids who got a rejection deserved it.

peggy

I am one whose daughter did not get into a top tier school. She got a number of rejection letters before being accepting into Millikin University. And what you all are saying has crossed my mind many, many times. Maybe she isn't talented enough to make it professionally. But that is not my decision to make. My decision is to continue to support her and to give her every chance possible. To continue to write checks for voice lessons and dance shoes. A friend of mine has a nephew that is working professionally. His MT degree is from Central Michigan Univ. So I know that it is possible.

I agree, I would like to seem more discussion from those that did not make it into the top tier school. Even more importantly, to see where they are in two or three or four years. Then again, it will be interesting to see where the CMU and NYU and CCM students are in two or three or four years.

Yes, theatermom, what you are saying has been said in many of our minds more than once. Along with all the other "mommy" doubts and worries.

Peg

anothermom-w-q

Peggy, thanks for your comments. It's great to here about other paths students have taken. And for my D, if she doesn't make it in professional MT, I know that she will always find places to perform. I am aways asking myself, "Is she good enough". I know she asks that of herself too. At this point, if it were up to me, she would apply early decision to Muhlenberg, and skip the auidtions, heartaches and possible acceptances, and just go be a happy college strudent with great opportunities to perform. But she wants to try, and see where she stands. And it's like standing in front of a train to stop her.
I don't know as many theatre people as I do musicians, but I know many more happy amateur instrumentalists than I do happy professionals. Work is work, in any field. And to be able to do what you love when you want to, and to say no when you want to instead of being in a spot where if you say no, they never ask you back is a gift.
And whatever skills these kids aquire will help them in whatever they do; in public speaking, chasing kids, teaching, and even lawyering.
Sorry this is convoluted, I am late to take the dog to the vet, but felt a need to respond.

razorback1

Yes, our kids all ask themselves these questions. And many of our kids read these forums. I hope none of the ones who got rejections are reading today. I'm willing to let them get their training and I mean let all of them have a chance to get training, and then let the market determine their success. It will be very interesting to see who ends up working, who sticks it out to even get to that point, and who ends up not finding their dream even though some professor at a top tier school deemed them talented. Surely all of us are old enough and experienced enough to realize you can't judge the talent of these children and their future based on a 3 minute period of time in front of 5 people on a given day. How naive to think that is enough to determine whether a person will excell. that's not enough time to determine talent, much less determination, charm, presence, acting ability, perserverance, attitude, integrity, and a multitude of other characteristics that determine success. And, of course, what about all the discussions discussing the schools filling their particular needs for gender and body type. And what in the world has happened to that prevailing attitude of support and encouragement purported to be so strong in this forum.

freelance

"I hope none of the ones who got rejections are reading today."

Every single child who is pursuing MT at one time or another will face rejection. It comes with the territory and is an inherent part of the process; if not at a school audition, then certainly at a "real' audition later on. I strongly feel that they SHOULD read and re-read these threads that deal with rejection and how to deal with it. Many school programs include this in their curriculum.

Once they get out on the streets, the 'market' is no better. Agents, casting directors and cattle calls will not be there to encourage or nurture. Some doors will open for them; some slam shut. Once again, there will be 3 minute auditions in front of 5 or 10 people--over and over again.

Yes, many working actors did not go to top programs. And there are small programs out there with wonderful, caring faculty who can provide good training. The MT college training program is just one rung on a very long and difficult ladder. All we can do is be supportive and be there for them when/if they fall and encourage them to get right back up again.

theatermom

I knew that as soon as I hit the "submit reply" button that I would hear the sound of ruffled feathers and raised hackles.

Please do not read my opinions as if they were directed to any one child or parent specifically, because if you read my comments with the care with which I wrote them, you will see that I believe that successful performers come from everywhere. I think it's a bit narrow minded to distill everything that I wrote down to the notion that I think that anyone who was rejected from a program "deserved" it. A wee bit simplistic, don't you think? For anyone who reads my post and is offended, I am sorry that you feel that way and you are certainly entitled to your response, but I didn't post these sentiments without thinking about what I said and I have to say that I stand by them.

I don't think, however, that these comments remove me from the "encouraging and supportive" group. In truth, my comments came out of my concern for the x-hundred kids who applied for admission to MT college programs and got in nowhere. I'll ask you all - why do YOU think these students weren't admitted anywhere? It is easier to explain why a student DID get into A, B & C program but NOT D,E & F. For example, it could be the much discussed topic of having to "cast" a class or program and there already being three blonde ingenues in the class or it could be the fact that a specific program has a marked preference for belters over legit singers, etc. But to those of you who are offended by my post, what do YOU believe it means when a student auditions for a full range of MT programs - reaches, mid-level AND safeties - and gets in nowhere? How do you interpret these results and if it happens to your child, what is the loving and responsible approach to take? These are the issues I'm trying to raise and I believe they are the issues that Musicalthtrmom was alluding to when she began this course of discussion.

With few exceptions, the rejected students and their parents do not post here - they may be reading, but they are not posting, which is a shame because I, too, think their voices need to be heard. And what they have to say could make a real difference long term to so many others.

If we limit our discussions to the safe, the accepted and the happy outcomes, are we really serving the full range of people who come to this site looking for advice and support. I, for one, don't think so.

razorback1

freelance, You misunderstood my statement and took it out of context. Yes, they face rejection. They will face lots of rejection. There is rejection in high school, rejection at college auditions and rejection in the professional world. I'm not saying they shouldn't learn to face rejections. Of course they should. But, they have to be able to face it and still believe in their talent, not walk away saying, "well, i got rejected so I must not be talented." I just hate to think that some kid who got a rejection letter is reading a post on this forum telling them that if they didn't get into a top program, they just aren't good enough and they need to face that. I'm talking about one individual's post. Even the people making the decisions regarding who is accepted at these schools would tell you that many, many talented kids are not accepted on a given day for a multitude of reasons, other than whether they are talented. I just meant that I think it is a mean thing to say on this forum. And I meant that the market can determine whether they are talented enough to make it......not that that will be easy, but that it should be determined there.......not by an individual on here who wants to tell them to just face it now. Of course they should read these forums and read them through and through. There's tons of good information and tons of good support. I wasn't referring to the forum as a whole, just that one post which I found hurtful to the kids who didn't get the results they wanted from their college auditions.

razorback1

"A wee bit simplistic, don't you think? " I think we're all pretty intelligent. But, all we can do is interpret what is written. This recent post tells a different story from the first. I still find it hurtful to those kids and I don't think it's the job of any one here to save them from themselves and make sure they face their inabilities. But, we can't be expected to know any more about the intent of a post other than what is written or what we can extrapolate from what is written. And as far as those parents who don't post here who got rejection letters, I doubt these last few posts are going to make them comfortable doing so. I just can't imagine what would prompt someone to take it upon themselves to help these no-talent kids find their way. surely their parents and friends who really care about them can do that.

theatermom

Razorback,

"And I meant that the market can determine whether they are talented enough to make it......not that that will be easy, but that it should be determined there.......not by an individual on here who wants to tell them to just face it now."

First of all, please feel free to use my screen name instead of referring to me as that "one" or "an individual."

What I am trying to say is that, in effect, the college programs to which these these kids are applying ARE part of the market - the first step in the market to be sure, but a reflection of that professional market they aspire to none the less.

I agree with Freelance that rejection is a HUGE part of this business and a hurdle all successful performers must deal with. Face it now or face it later, but face it they will. I doubt that any of them will encounter the prospect of rejection for the first time from someone like me on a forum such as this or that what I wrote will dissuade anyone from pursuing their dream if their desire is as fierce as it needs to be for them to succeed.

And as for encouraging young performers to follow their dreams, I am happy to let my track record on this forum speak for itself.

'Nuf said.

chrism

"If we limit our discussions to the safe, the accepted and the happy outcomes, are we really serving the full range of people who come to this site looking for advice and support. I, for one, don't think so."

Yes, believe it or not, THAT was the message I meant to send. Which brings me back to the original thread title - if there had been more of a range of experiences (happy, mixed (my d), and lousy) represented on this board in the months prior to auditioning, I think a more realistic view of the process would have prevailed.

It makes perfect sense that those with an unsatisfactory outcome would drop off the board. I just wanted to point out that among the subset of the few who had very positive outcomes, they probably did end up where they were meant to be.

But I don't think you can extend that thinking to the subset who didn't end up at a good program and say they also ended up where THEY were meant to be. I think we just don't know yet where they are "meant" to be.

And I didn't take offense, just wanted to broaden the point of view here.

razorback1

you're right, everything that has been said speaks for itself. nuf said, also.

MusThCC

I am always sorry when it seems to me that comments that are meant in the general are read by some people to their specifics.
Obviously, on a forum such as this, there is no way to "measure" people's attributes - be it their talent, their drive, their perseverance, their intelligence, their physique, their training. I know of a girl who took tap at a "local" studio, who after 10 years of study couldn't come close to what my daughter received in 3 years at a more intensive program. So, when you read other people's "statistics" and try to compare to your child's, it can be very misleading. Add in the fact that there are no absolutes - it's not like a standardized test - "you score in the 97th percentile of all MT students" And - what one set of auditors may love leaves another set totally cold. Some students who enter programs have little experience - some who get only rejections have resumes a mile long.

The cold, hard truth is that I know kids who are auditioning for MT programs that just do not have what it takes to get an acceptance. And, hard though it is to make that call, someone who has worked with them probably needs to be very honest in their assessment. And, if the student, the parents, or the teacher think the people whose judgement they are trusting may not have the knowledge to tell - check other vocal or acting coaches who may have a better feel for it.
That is NOT to say, however, that everyone who didn't get in anywhere doesn't have the talent. The many things that enter into who gets accepted where have been discussed many places previously. It could be that a person who got only rejections didn't really apply at schools that were a good match. There could have been problems with their audition material. Bless those schools who will provide students with feedback - none of my D's auditioning schools did so!
But - if a student gets only rejection letters, there has to be a period of self-assessment - was I really at the top of my audition game? If not - why not? Did I not take it seriously enough? Prepare enough? Not have enough training/ background/ knowledge to make good choices? If I WAS as thoroughly prepared as I could be, and I had a good mix of schools (not all top-tier), then I think it has to go back to whether this is a field I should be trying to enter. It's been said that many of the top schools "cast their classes", according to their need, but they also want to graduate students will be marketable, not only to preserve their reputations as training schools, but also in the long-term best interests of the students.
Not every kid who plays high school football gets the opportunity to play in college - and of the ones who go on to play college ball, only a fraction of them can make a career of it. Not every kid who has a good time being in their high school shows can go on to a career in MT. However, they CAN choose a college where they can continue their passion without majoring in it. Some schools cast only MT majors in shows - some, they are open to the entire school. Likewise, there aren't many outlets for people to play football throughout their adult lives - there are tons of places for people to perform - church and civic choirs, community theatres, cabaret style entertainment.... and some people make these choices, NOT based on talent level, but based on lifestyle. Not everyone wants to be a starving actor waiting tables all their lives. Or spend 5 weeks working, then 6 months looking for the next job. Or live out of a suitcase, city to city, for months on end. Or, they may want to do that for a while, but then decide they want a more stable life.

I agree that many people who don't get acceptances don't continue to post, and that it would probably be good for future students if some would. What choices did they have at that point? What options did they pursue? Did they prepare differently, and re-audition?
And - I will say that while obviously those of you who had multiple acceptances have every right to be proud of same, I thought there were a few posters who probably were a little "over-the-top" in their exuberance, and if your child wasn't meeting with any success, it could be taken as them rubbing it in. While that may not have been the intention, if your child is being bruised by the process, that may have been how you took it. So - for this year's auditioners, please share good news and bad, but try to do it in a way that won't seem to diminish others' efforts.
And, parents, please try to develop the same slightly thickened skin your child needs for the audition process, and not take things personally that weren't intended that way. If there is a post that is out of line, notify the moderator and it will be removed. If it is your perception that it was hurtful, but it wasn't really directed personally at you - see if re-reading it without layering your situation on it gives you a different perspective of it.
This whole process is tough enough without any extra stress thrown in!