Soylent

Apparently those people who did the alternative service didn't WANT to serve enough.

shogun

"Apparently those people who did the alternative service didn't WANT to serve enough."

"Enough" is a relative term in the real world. Put 4 years in at West Point, graduate, and be commissioned as an officer in the US Army. It will be the Army that decides if you've served "enough," and ultimately it will be the Army that decides in which capacity you do that service. The Army will decide when you've paid your debt. Anybody else's measurement (read: "judgement") of quality of service, worth, or contribution, is immaterial and irrelevent. Soon to be Lt. Campbell has earned those bars they will pin on him in May, and if he turns out to be a great recruiting tool, then great!--since it appears our policy makers have the stomach for war but not for a draft. We need all the help we can get.

jadler03

shogun,

I concur with soylent's statement.

If the athletes in this program REALLY wanted to SERVE their country, they would have rejected an offer for this program. I believe this is what soylent is saying. I highly doubt that the Department of the Army would force a 2ndLt. to compete in a professional-level sport, if they'd rather go serve alongside a unit.

This isn't to say that any cadet hasn't earned their right to be commissioned or that he isn't a good officer or leader. It is just differentiating someone who REALLY wants to SERVE and will make a sacrifice and someone who wants to pursue their own ambitions, while providing a side service (recruitment due to visibility).

This is exactly why a LOT of people hold Pat Tillman in the regards they do....he gave up his personal ambitions (sacrifice) for something much greater.

Soylent

Shogun: The Army works for me as a citizen and taxpayer, so I believe that my judgment is just as important as the Army's. As one of the many who have paid for these athletes' educations, my judgment is that their "service, worth, or contribution" is not worth our $350,000. The Army may decide when their debt has been made, but the Army works for me and I'm doing my duty as a citizen to speak up about their misdecisions. He may have earned his bar, but I would prefer he actually use it.

shogun

Fortunately, neither of our judgements is as important as the Army's. Being a taxpayer doesn't make either of us any smarter either. The DoD is doing it's best to make up for this nation's inability to field an Army large enough to fulfill it's mission. This is not the DoD's fault, it's the fault of the policy makers and a public that enjoys paying homage to a military that it's not actually willing to join. The fact is, there aren't enough Pat Tillman's in the NFL, on Wall Street, or on Main Street. Since the draft isn't likely, finding new ways to encourage recruitment at both the academies and ROTC, and in the enlisted ranks, is critical. If the program ends up providing value, the DoD will continue to approve it. If not, trust me, they'll dump it like a load of bricks.

USNA69

This entire program stinks. The Army does not have a recruiting problem. They have a retention problem. A retention problem probably exacerbated by hair-brained schemes such as this implemented solely to improve the quality of their football team.

First off, the Army is well on their way for the third year in a row to surpass their recruiting goals. The fact that they have had to lower their standards somewhat is not the end of the world. They just have to work a little harder whipping them into shape. Last year alone, West Point sent out 734 rejection letters to QUALIFIED applicants. Seven hundred thirty four applicants who knew we were engaged in a global war on terrorism and were ready to serve.

The Army doesn’t need recruiting help, they need retention help. What are the Campbells and the Hills doing for retention for an Army that is commencing to feel a tremendous shortage in field grade officers or for the young Captain who is leaving his family for his fourth deployment.

Also, I grew up in an environment where one had his house in order before he asked for outside help. Two thirds of Naval Officers will be asked to support Individual Augmentation during their first well-earned shore duty. Coming off close to four years of sea duty where they probably spent in excess of sixty percent of their time away from home. Coming to shore duty, where their absence will cause their shipmates to work tremendous amounts of overtime, not to mention another extended period away from their family. Individual Augmentation to support the Army and its misplaced priorities.

Totally illogical. This nation has given DOD an end strength. The Army has met that end strength. They are now mismanaging it.

shogun, apparently this is a three year old Army policy recently adopted by DOD in order, I assume, to lend legitimacy to this farce. I know it would make you feel vindicated if it was adopted by all three services. Don’t hold your breath.

Also, I am amazed that you ‘paraded’ the WP war dead in an attempt somehow to lend legitimacy to your argument. You have no clue what their position was on this subject and, thusly, probably owe the families of each and every one of them an apology.

My parting questions are what kid smart enough to be recruited by Army would not be smart enough to ask about whether or not this plan would be in effect when he graduated. And what coach, honest enough to coach a SA football team would be able to respond with anything other than the fact that he didn't have a clue. So, it is probably not helping recruiting and is hurting Army officer retention.

Ann

Well now that we all know that this is not a popular program (and for good reason for the most part), there are a few points that need to be clarified.

Yes, the Army has a retention problem, but this program was not designed to solve that problem. From my experience, the GWOT has made it more difficult to recruit. I believe that every branch of service has recruiters and a marketing and PR program to support that end (yes, I still get the fact that this ASO program is not popular).

I believe this is largely irrelevant to the philosophical argument, but since the taxpayer cost of the education was brought up, it is worth pointing out that cadets are required to pay back a prorated share of their education costs to compensate for time not served (it is a substantial amount).

USNA Dad&Grad

JAMO4:

I wasn't making a judgment on the Service Selection of the USMA football players, the folks who post on the Scout.com Army board were. Presumably, most are USMA grads, parents and fans of Army Football.

I don't "grade" the choice that Mids and Cadets make in terms of the branch they choose. I leave that to others who think one branch trumps the other. Personally, I think the practice is counterproductive to unity in the Armed Forces and is the main reason for destructive intra and interservice rivalries.

You're right on the Marine thing. The limit used to be 1/6 of the graduating class could go USMC (BTW, they're Mishipmen at USNA, not Cadets ). Evidently, the limit has been removed to allow more 2LT's from USNA, which I think is a good thing.

ASO is available to all the Academies, but currently USMA is the only school really pushing it. To me, it's a slippery slope we don't want to go down. As my "dear old dad" used to say, "just because you can, doesn't mean you should." True enough, it's up to the Secretary of the Army to decide how to run his service, I just happen to think it's the wrong thing to do, and it won't pass the "smell test" when people realize what's going on.

My gut tells me that it will be eliminated in the not too distant future, but I am completely aware that my opinion is just that - my opinion.

USNA D&G

JustAMomOf4

USNADad&Grad:
I know you weren't making a judgment on service selection - but you did post it. I can't be responsible for what people post on scout.com! (from the little I read neither are they!) But yeah - those in infantry claim there are really only two branches in the Army - infantry and everyone else.

My apologies to referring to mids as cadets - I know better.

ASO - I can' kind of see where they are coming from - I still don't like it. The article on Caleb Campbell said he had been approached by college coaches during his early tenure at West Point - encouraging him to leave before his committment kicks in and go play with them.
Army football (and probably other sports) does lose athletes - so I have a tendency to believe this recruiting happens. I find this reprehensible - how can an academy compete with that? It should be a violation of NCAA regulations.

So - devil's advocate here - what does the Army and USMA do with this kid? He excels on the playing field, reaching a level no one saw coming, he excels in leadership (from all accounts) and apparently in the classroom. Does this Army support this burgeoning talent? Do they embrace him and find a place for him to use his skills to represent the Army in a way not many others can?
Do they cut him loose? Do they risk another Kyle Eckel situation?

There are no easy answers. If there are a handful of superior atheltes at USMA who are at risk of leaving before committment then perhaps they will stay - taking the risk. Perhaps the Army, while "losing" Campbell is gaining a few more athletes as officers who would have otherwise left.
Perhaps Campbell can inspire other young people to join the service and be a part of military life. This is the dilemma.
It really isn't as black and white as we would like it to be.

shogun

"This nation has given DOD an end strength. The Army has met that end strength. They are now mismanaging it."

Huh? The Army and Marines are sending men and women back to Iraq and Afganistan for their 3rd and 4th deployments? If "recruiting goals" are being met, then the policy makers have failed us again (shades of Rumsfeld) in not anticipating correct troop strength-- but that still doesn't change the fact that the Army is too small for its current mission and our answer seems to be just keep sending 'em back. (I hope our answer isn't "the Army is just mis-managing".) As for "parading the war dead", I see nothing wrong with a little reminder of the sacrifice already made in response to the article's comment that the USMA motto should be changed to "evade, avoid, nfl", as if cadets are out looking for a "way out" and Academy officials are more than happy to show them. The article was written in an insulting manner, and the list of former graduates KIA for our nation in the War on Terror was meant to emphasize that point. Cadet Campbell took his re-affirmation oath in his Junior year, the same as everyone else. He understands his duty, and if the Army sends him here or there he will go.

Regardless, if a draft isn't going to happen (and it won't), if American's aren't going to join the ground forces in enough strength to make any difference (and they aren't), then it may be time to start expanding the role of women in combat roles, and moving men and women from the other branches and training them for life on the ground in the Middle East.
Again, not only did the policy makers fail to plan, react, and then re-plan, our leaders failed to even ask the nation for either more personnel or money. We tried to do it with what we already had, and borrowed to pay for it.
Now, here we are.

Ann--interesting comment on the programs requirement to make the officers pay back part of their education if they go qualify for and choose ASO. That certainly should make it more palatable for some.

GoNavyXC

Honestly, no one here is making a big fuss about Kyle Eckel, the Navy running back who was comissioned as a SWO from here and then went on to play (he is still playing) for the New England Patriots. It's honestly good PR for Navy and Navy football. Most people back home thought that many athletes coming out of Navy went to the pros anyway because of David Robinson, Roger Staubach, and those other rare exceptions. The general public is not going crazy about this issue if I went up to someone on the street and told them about Eckel or now, in this case, the West Point defensive back. I know I have to do my five years and I'm fine with that...If there are talented athletes that could go pro, I say let them because it's good PR for the military, which is always ridiculed by public opinion.

Army and Navy traditionally have had great football programs, but now in the recruiting era where the best and brightest are using their intuition to go to the Stanfords, Texas', Arkansas' of the world instead of the Service Academies to play football, it shows that interest in the military academies and serving in general is down for the high level athletes that both academies were previously accostomed to having.

USNA Dad&Grad

Caleb Campbell doesn't appear to be like Kyle Eckel in any way, shape or form - and Navy grads are not all in agreement of how that went down. Besides, it's a completely different type of situation too complex for this thread. From what little I read, Cadet Campbell seems to be an outstanding young man faced with a really tough dilemma, and I wouldn't wish that choice on anyone.

If he chooses the Army - the 'grunt' Army over the NFL - some people will undoubtedly second guess his choice for the rest of his life. "You coulda been an NFL star."

If he chooses to follow the majority of his classmates into Combat Arms, I would be willing to bet that he will earn the respect of the majority of the country, even though the relative obscurity of life as a line officer in the Army pales in comparison to the potential glamor of the NFL.

It's not his fault the choice is there for him; others have made the choice possible, and he should certainly consider it. He's playing by the rules as they exist today, but again I would say, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

I honestly doubt that his impact as a recruiter will have the type of impact to recruiting and especially retention that is being bandied about by those who think ASO is a good idea. I'd be willing to bet that a West Point trained 2LT will have a much larger (if less publicized) impact to the men and women he might lead in a line unit than in the NFL.

FWDAD

Two quick observations. We are all ultimately constrained by the facts and when you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw rocks.

I am at a total loss for how USNA Dad&Grad can rationalize his statement above regarding Caleb Campbell and Kyle Eckel. The only difference I can find is that even if Caleb Campbell gets drafted he will serve in the Army Reserves and help Army recruiting. Can you honestly say that about Kyle Eckel? The fact that USNA Dad&Grad and some other Navy grads may "not all be in agreement of how that went down" doesn't change the fact that Kyle Eckel did not follow a traditional path after graduating from Annapolis and that he did not fulfill the commitment he made while at the Naval Academy. The reality is that Eckel was treated differently than other Naval Academy grads regardless of whatever justification or policy the Navy used to achieve that end. Does it bother you that West Point is doing something through the front door that Annapolis is doing through the backdoor? Is that hypocritical?

For some reason reality seems to be missing from this thread. I commend Shogun and the others who have added some common sense to this thread. If anyone doesn't understand why the Army is having a hard time recruiting take a long hard look at the number of West Point grads that have made the ultimate sacrifice for their Country. Then take a look at the same statistics for Naval Academy grads and Air Force Academy grads. Do you think a young high school graduate or graduate to be might be able to see that you are a lot more likely to die if you go to West Point or join the Army than the Navy or Air Force?

Get off the ride and Disneyworld and look at the reality of what is happening in the world. Every kid that serves his country is to be commended, whether they graduated from USMA, USNA, USAFA or the high school down the street. All of the Armed Forces are dealing with tough times and the prospects for significant improvement in the short term don't look so hot. Let's stop taking pot shots at each other and concentrate on something positive. We are all suppose to be paddling together and second guessing another branch's policy is counter productive at best. And if for some reason you feel compelled to condemn another service's policy, make sure that your own hasn't done exactly the same thing by another name.

jadler03

Kyle Eckel's situation was not handled properly and it really isn't any different than what is going on now. Rumor has it that he actually had under a 2.0 and he definitely was a conduct problem. It's situations like this that should be prevented in all services, not just the Army!!!

If we send an athlete to "recruit" via professional sports....what are we saying about the military? Are we really recruiting people for the right reasons? What is the relationship between someone serving in the military...or in this case...really never serving...and military service? How can you identify this professional athlete with any military experience (other than ROTC/SA)? Furthermore, if too many kids are turning down the Army because of the risk of death/injury...then aren't those kids be unaffected by a professional athlete?

How come the Marine Corps can recruit without utilizing a professional athlete? I believe its because of the tradition and the "right" to earn the title...it's the title that attracts the students, not the athlete. The Marine Corps is suffering on the front lines, just like the Army.

My point is....we, as a military, need to stop sugar-coat recruiting. We shouldn't be glamorizing the professional athlete...because unless they have served previously, they aren't really representing the military.

And I agree, we shouldn't be back-stabbing other services...I just see no benefit to this DoD policy and we are pitching our recruiting efforts solely to grab students based off of someone who can play sports....not someone necessarily off the warrior ethos...someone who has proven themselves. It would be different, if say, someone after 5 years of service decided to go pro...then there would be some legitimacy.

mom3boys

FWDAD: excellent post.