Centh

" Minority applicants with scores and grades down to the 300s with Cs and Ds (and no particular leadership or athletics) also come, though after a remedial year at our taxpayer-supported remedial school, the Naval Academy Preparatory School."

My daughter's SATs and grades were well above those and her HS counselor told her she was destined for community college. I guess I should have had her apply to NAPS

(Sarcasm intended).

keydet

"Patton:

VMI one year. Deficient in Mathematics first year at WP. Repeated first year with honors and appointed Cadet Adjutant. Not stupid just young."

Well that's the point- the relentless drive to quantify the "best" by some arbitrary academic exercise like SAT's or Class Rank just doesn't make sense and if you applied the standard that this academic wants you to - you would have excluded some of the great leaders of the past. It's the folks who are defining quality and standards as "must have high 600's or better on all SAT's and a 3.99 GPA while taking at least 5 AP courses" who are using the wrong measurements for success of the Academy. Success is measured by their graduates performance and committment to career service as military officers. Diversity is a worthwhile goal and it's foolish to believe that a citizen military doesn't have a responsibility to resemble the society it serves- if you have to ask why you probably have never been a leader in the military. The SA broadening it's search pattern to bring in more minority mids and cadets strengthens the service. If they land smart , committed individuals who become solid leaders upon graduation- then they have doen their job. So if their avg SAT score goes down slightly- who cares if they still get bright individuals with the capacity to lead in the 21st century. And it is a given that they routinely have lowered required test scores and GPAs for recruited Athletes, prior service etc... they send them to NAPS; MAPS etc or just disregarded the scores because they wanted the individual- so it is already a way of life and nobody thinks that the Academy or the service has made an error in doing so- well nobody other than a disgruntled civilian English teacher who sounds like he should be at St John's rather than at USNA.

JustAMomOf4

^
Brilliant, I say! Simply brilliant!

MrGopher

Prof Fleming is clearly showing that racism even if well intentioned has negative consequences. His article at sftt.org clearly illustrates this point.

The two tiered system breeds resentment. It was created not to build a stronger military but to satisfy a metric goal arbitrarily chosen by one person and then repeated through the chain of command.

Everyone understands its more than just Academics. However why should one group have to prove themselves with academics, one group with athletics and one group by their race?

One standard, one mission, one Navy. If that means we have to sacrifice our Div 1A status in sports, reduce the academic standard for all and sacrifice a diversity metric then so be it. We will end up with a very cohesive, well rounded and motivated officer corps.

I for one vote for removing the "ethnic background" block of the application and fill the athletic teams through open tryouts.

navalacdmyhpfl

I just graduated in the top 20% of my class from a school that was named as one of the top 50 in america and my SATs were 690 CR 730 math and 710 writing, i recieved nominations to USNA from one senator and a congresswoman, and to USMA from the other senator and the congresswoman

I got into USNA as a track and field recruit though ... all I am saying is not all us athletes need special help to get in, not saying i would have got in without the track but i think i stood a good chance

Whistle Pig

Indeed you would have. Congratulations, knock 'em dead.

And your self-description illustrating your personal merit beyond being able to pole vault or run a quick dash or whatever classically illustrates another disservice done in this process. Forever and a day, not athletes so much, but those more readily identifiable by their ethnicity, will be viewed as 2nd class in need of special favor to get in, get out, get on. What a disservice to you and to many of the others.

It is a fundamental violation of a domain that was built upon the fundamental notion of hard work joined with capacity to learn. Some may cry that academic standards are "arbitrary" or that evidence of leadership in ECs is "arbitrary" but in the absence of others, they are the best the Navy has known. Surely there could be absolutely nothing more "arbitrary" and unfair judging someones unfit or undeserving because of their skin color and ethnic background. No more does the merit of ability and hard work stand as the pillar for judging people in what was once a bastion of meritocracy. That's what the exposure of this means.

In the end it is indefensable beyond one reality. That's what PC demands. And that is what PC will get.

And still none can offer a reasonable answer as to why a person of one ethnic background is better suited to lead than another? Any notions?

So shoot Professor Messenger if you wish. Proclaim the history of meritocracy and measurement of excellence to be bogus if you wish. But do not disclaim the truth in what he has shared, regardless of his message.

And in the end, those who suffer will be those who are forever identified as likely to have been admitted and graduated on a different scale than the others. Notably those who will forever have to defend their genuine performance to a far greater extent than those who we all identify as simply spectacular. And sadly, by this measure, they will be, barring medical intervention, forever identifiable. Now that's unfair.

JustAMomOf4

My dear friend Whistle Pig - you know as well as I that life isn't fair. You also probably know that the "best" person for the job isn't always the "most qualified" - whatever that is. You also know the service academies conduct their admissions under the constraints of the nomination process.

Each academy has 170 slots available each year for enlisted folks. They are admitted under different standards than high school students. Where is the out cry?
Congress has determined that each entering plebe must not have reached their 23rd birthday - where is the age discrimination outcry?

Getting admitted is simple really - it's a competition. Be the best in your Congressional district and you are in. You can't get into Harvard that way. If I were a Congresswoman and submitted 10 names and the academy chose to admit the student with the SAT of 1400, a 2.5 GPA and no sports or EC's over several students who had SAT's of 2100, 3.5 GPA and were student body presidents and varsity team captains - that would be the last year I would use the competitive method. From then on I would use the Principle method. Other MOC's would too.

Each Academy has a certain number of slots available for children of disables veterans or who were KIA. This is dictated by Congress - not admissions. If such an applicant was black or white, male or female - they only have to show they are qualified to be admitted even if they are a "weaker" applicant than others.

No doubt the academy has made a concerted effort to increase recruitment of minorities - outreach to populations that are unfamiliar with military options, including service academies is to be commended.
Fleming has totally overblown his case.

3togo

The ultimate anedote ... from the Civil War ... Confederate General Lee was #1 in his class at west Point (or darn close) ... and Union General Grant was just about last in his class.

I would guess there is some correlation to class rank and success in the military but I bet it is a pretty weak correlation.

navy07

Let me start this off by saying that I am a minority. I do not agree with much that this professor has said in the past, however I must admit this is one that does have merit.

The things that are done in order to make the brigade look diverse in my opinion hurts minorities. When at the academy, the effort to have brigade leadership which is diverse means that some less qualified people are put in leadership positions over somebody who may have worked three years to try to get that position. Do not get me wrong, most of the minorities in high leadership positions were overly qualified for it, worked hard for it and earned it. What this leads to is any minority in a leadership position is viewed as a quota, rather than having earned the position. By putting a few in leadership position in order to "diversify" the leadership, it in turn negates the work of minorities who worked and earned the positions they are appointed to. I was a battalion commander my 1/C year, and worked hard to earn the position, however I knew that in the back of peoples minds, some think I got the position because I was a minority. I do not blame them because of the policy of "ensuring" there was a overly proportionate amount of minorities in leadership positions. As a minority, this thought would be in the back of my mind when seeing minorities in high leadership positions that I knew did not have the best records at the academy.

In my opinion, all that these actions create, is more racism, since it negates the accomplishments of minorities who obtained the same or higher accomplishments of non-minorities and earned their acceptance and position in the school.

This affirmative action used to eliminate racial discriminiation in my opinion creates inverse discrimination. It creates racism. We are now saying a minority is more qualified than a non-minority. Sounds like racism to me.

Momathome

Navy 07 - You have hit the nail on the head! The main problem with ANY "quota" system is that the people who are really hurt are the very ones who have worked their tails off to get a position but are forever viewed as suspect because of affirmative action policies. The people who get positions they don't deserve, simply due to the need to "fill a slot", are well aware that there were more qualified applicants and thus they are either intimidated or they become resentful and bitter.

The racial tensions in this country have, sadly, become more pronounced as people are too quick to identify by race first and make little effort to see each person as a unique individual with specific strengths and weaknesses. When we get to the point where the admissions board, and society as a whole, are willing to look at the "content of the character" rather than the race/color/gender, then we will have the best people possible and, maybe-just maybe, we can actually learn to respect each other and stop all the infighting! We need to get to the point where people identify as Americans, first and foremost, and leave all of the other "hyphenated" identities out of the picture!

undercoveraviatr

it's true that academic excellence is not directly related to military success

it's also true to have an officer corps that is diverse and correctly represents the enlisted ranks

but...i don't care if you are white, black, green, purple or orange -- there should be one standard. period.

Whistle Pig

While there's plenty of meat to chew on in these observations, the easiest to debunk is this one. Despite the aberrent anecdotes showcasing the occasional misbehaving class bottom-dweller legacy who goes on to marry well and become a U.S. politician thanks to her largesse ... or on the other end, the USNA Rhodes Scholar who couldn't find his behind when the lights are turned out let alone lead a platoon of peers to the grocery store ...and they abound and mean nothing beyond interesting fodder for those who somehow think these mutant cases provide sufficient evidence to pooh-pooh USNA's longstanding fundamental framework for identifying her "best" as her brightest ...

Who gets the #1 choice of assignment? The #1 ranked Mid, most of which is determined by his/her academic merit.

Will this now change to ensure that minorities are proportionately distributed in the USN professional communities? It seeminly would follow.

What did even Sen. McCain's admiral granddaddy say was the most important thing in developing and identifying top-shelf Navy officers? Men who could and would be able to THINK on the fly. While indeed there are many types of gifts, the NFL needs fast lads who can catch a football, no matter their color or lack there of.

In fact, the USN has long determined the single most significant factor in predicting who'll be the best officers in the Navy, are the brightest. Until now that is.

The question never asked and never addressed remains: ...

Can anyone lend insight as to why it has now been determined that the body of officers must relect the same ethnicity of enlisted, even when requires separate-and-unequal tracks for admission and completion?

P.S. Amen 2010! Who'da thunk it! 'Tis a good thing.

JustAMomOf4

Vietnam.

Question -
Hypothesis - USNA is admitting a bunch of dumb Black kids who can't do simple addition or write a complete sentence. Hence, keeping out very bright white students who deserve to attend because of their genius.

How then does USNA have such a remarkably high graduation rate? The majority of appointments are made within the confines of a Congressional Nomination - which admissions has no control over.
Yet the Academy still graduates over 80% of midshipmen. If all these minorities are so "unqualified" then how do they manage to graduate?

Perhaps part deux will the the "two track curriculum".

grad/dad

Whistle Pig; the initial assignment is no big deal, unless you are going into some speciality where they take a limited number. Does it really matter if you are the first person to select Navy air or the 300th? I do not think so. Does it matter that your ship is homeported in San Diego vice Norfolk? Professionally, no. Once you get to your first duty station, no one cares that you graduated first in your class from USNA. You are just another in the long line of new ensigns that have reported on board over the past many years. It is now time for you to grow professionally and prove yourself as an officer. Why does a body of officers need to reflect the ethnicity of the enlisted? My personal belief and answer is role models. We are an all volunteer force that expects the citizens to stand up and become members of our armed forces. We need to reach out to everyone. We need to demonstrate that there are opportunities for advancement for everyone. We need to show that becoming an officer or senior enlisted is based on performance and nothing else. As for lower ranked high school students, I would actually prefer to have the person working for me who worked hard to get C's rather than the person who did nothing and got A's and B's. The person who worked hard for the C's is probably a more goal driven, get the job done individual. Based on my experience in the fleet with USNA grads, I think the admissions process has worked out really well.

navy07

The real question is do the parents of enlisted Marines and Sailors really care what ethnicity is leading their sons or daughters? No, they care that their sons and daughters are being led by the most competant and most qualified officers, period. I want the most qualified and best people I can get in my detachment. When picking people to deploy with me, I dont base it on ethnicity. I base it on qualifications...who can best complete the mission. Why are we picking officers based on ethnicity? If our overall goal is mission accomplishment shouldnt we be picking the most qualified person regardless of their ethnicity?