USNA Professor Exposes USNA 2 Track Admissions - Page 3

Whistle Pig · 06-19-2009, 06:53 AM

Thank you 07 for your voice of sanity. This is about equal opportunity for men and women surviving. Not about who delivers the mail. Not about everyone getting a trophy and not keeping score. Equal opportunity fails to mean equal ability to lead. Let those to the post office and little league. And it's not bound by color or ethnicity. It's about identifying and equipping the best. Or was.

JustAMomOf4 · 06-19-2009, 08:36 AM

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The real question is do the parents of enlisted Marines and Sailors really care what ethnicity is leading their sons or daughters? No, they care that their sons and daughters are being led by the most competant and most qualified officers, period. I want the most qualified and best people I can get in my detachment. When picking people to deploy with me, I dont base it on ethnicity. I base it on qualifications...who can best complete the mission. Why are we picking officers based on ethnicity? If our overall goal is mission accomplishment shouldnt we be picking the most qualified person regardless of their ethnicity?

So, okay base it solely on "qualifications" but what makes a person "more qualified" to lead or "better qualified" to lead?
SAT scores? No way. And this is the crux of the argument. Folks are complaining that some persons of color have lower SAT's and hence less qualified or not qualified at all.
The graduation rates disprove this.
I also raised the question that Prof Fleming did not address - what about those from prior service? This group is normally "less qualified" than the direct admit group from high school. Lower SAT's and more minorities.
With 15,000 applications for Navy and nearly 12,000 for West Point it would probably be pretty easy to admit a class that is all white male, from an upper-middle class background, with exceptional SAT's.
This is not what the Navy (or Army) wants and not what Congress wants. Nor what most American's would want - we've been there done that.

As far as the best and the brightest goes - look at Craig Mullaney, West Point grad, Rhodes Scholar, Combat Platoon leader. After one tour he called it quits. Finished his commitment (extended so the Army could pay for his Oxford education) teaching history at the Naval Academy. He is now out of the Army.
Professor Fleming should conduct a study - tell us how long the top of the class, Rhodes Scholars (and other scholarship winners) last in the service. I think you would find General Petraeus the exception and not the rule.

itlstallion422 · 06-19-2009, 09:30 AM

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It's not much of a secret that there has been a relaxing of the standards to allow Athletes, minorities etc... into the academies. But really- SO WHAT? The standard such as it is (and the reality is that there is no standard but there is a norm that most Mids/Cadets fall into for SAT performance etc) is an arbitrary number to winnow the field down to a reasonable number. But is the academic prowess of an 18-21year old much of a measurement of whether someone will be "the best damn officers the Navy can get its hands on?" No I don't believe it is. Correlating admissions criteria to success is pretty tenuous

So what??? Standards are compromised and the response is "so what?" To use Admissions standards alone to determine whether or not an applicant will be successful is, as you put it, "tenuous" at best. However when using admissions standards across a wide spectrum, say for instance, an entire class there would be some limited correlation to success. For example, there are two Naval Academy classes. One is a random cross section of the American public, while the other is selected based on their academic record, club/sport involvement, personal interviews, and demonstrated leadership ability/potential. Which one would you put your money on?

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that's the point- the relentless drive to quantify the "best" by some arbitrary academic exercise like SAT's or Class Rank just doesn't make sense and if you applied the standard that this academic wants you to - you would have excluded some of the great leaders of the past. It's the folks who are defining quality and standards as "must have high 600's or better on all SAT's and a 3.99 GPA while taking at least 5 AP courses" who are using the wrong measurements for success of the Academy.

There are many examples of outstanding and high ranking officers that were not ranked high in their respective classes. None of the three McCain's were ranked above the bottom. Patton and Grant have also been used as examples. Hell, the youngest general in history, Custer, was ranked dead last in his class (there is even a story about him breaking into his prof's house the night before an exam to steal a copy of the test). But if we are going to use the example of a few who gained success from the bottom of their class, then what about all those great leaders who never were because someone less qualified was admitted over them?

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Each academy has 170 slots available each year for enlisted folks. They are admitted under different standards than high school students. Where is the out cry?

What do black, white, red, brown, and green high school students have in common? They are all high school students of course. Prior enlisted however, are a different breed They bring to the table things that no high schooler could even recognize. They offer not only their fleet experience, but also the perspective of being an enlisted sailor to the incoming plebe class. They have already demonstrated to the Navy their abilities, and depending on their academic pedigree, the Navy will invest in them further by either sending them straight to the incoming class, or to Naps for a year of polishing.

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How then does USNA have such a remarkably high graduation rate? The majority of appointments are made within the confines of a Congressional Nomination - which admissions has no control over.

The true question is why isn't it higher? As Prof. Fleming points out in his article, attrition rates are higher among minorities.

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Why does a body of officers need to reflect the ethnicity of the enlisted? My personal belief and answer is role models.

This is a very convincing argument. For example, a young black sailor who maybe never had any advantage in life, who thinks he can never rise above E-3 sees his new Div-O fresh from the Naval Academy with shiny new ensign bars who looks like him. He may be more likely to identify with that officer and believe that maybe if he works hard that he might become an officer too. I just wish we could increase diversity without compromising standards.

Whistle Pig · 06-19-2009, 10:44 AM

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As far as the best and the brightest goes - look at Craig Mullaney, West Point grad, Rhodes Scholar, Combat Platoon leader. After one tour he called it quits.

Not sure what your point is here. In fact, many have written various pieces about how the watering down and multiplying of standards is a, perhaps the principal cause for 5 and divers like Mullaney, who btw was a shining star ...and #2 in his class.

Lastly, it's a bit superscilious proclaiming to be sufficiently all-knowing about what "Americans want."

If you want to make some kind of point look no further than the USNA where the director of the admissions diversity effort is a 5 and diver too. Quit the Navy, probably making 2 or 3 times what he made the month before his departure. So much for calling and commitment. Probably sitting in the same desk he had while wearing a uniform.

And let's remember ...we can debate the validity of qualifications till the cows arrive on the Yard. They are the quals the Navy has determined work best and for generations. Anecdotes of deviations abound and change or prove nothing. The implication of those who like to use those illustrations is "screw up, don't perform, etc....and you'll be a great leader." The Navy does not agree. They are merely interesting wind stories.

And on another note, the end game would suggest that Custer merited his spot, thus validating WP's determination that no matter his latter rise, the Academy's assessment was indeed, right on the $. Not only did he get himself scalped, but also every man in his charge. Some might suggest the same of McCain, brave as he was in incarceration, and his tanking 2 aircraft while practicing to become a USN flyer.

itlstallion422 · 06-19-2009, 05:38 PM

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we can debate the validity of qualifications till the cows arrive on the Yard.

The cows should be arriving on the yard whenever the Ac year begins. I'm not sure how many exchangers they have this year but there should be atleast a dozen or so

...Sorry, couldn't resist

Whistle Pig · 06-19-2009, 09:22 PM

Touche, Rocky!

Love yo,
Adrienne

navy07 · 06-20-2009, 03:42 AM

Justamom... The underlying issue is that there is a difference in SAT scores, academic grades, and overall strength of a packet. By saying that they graduate does not make up for the fact that race plays a role in admissions. Why should standards be different for different races. Would that not be a case of racism? I am a minority as I have said in previous posts. Does this give me the right to be accepted with lower achievements in academics, SATs, athletics, leadership positions than somebody who is not a minority?

Why should it matter what race somebody is ? How is it different for somebody to be not accepted because they are caucasian than not being accepted because you are a minority? By not accepting sombody because of race is a definition of racism. Anybody can graduate from the Naval Academy with hard work. The issue isnt can they graduate. The issue is that we are deciding who has the opportunity to graduate from the Naval Academy, since you have to be accepted in order to graduate.

As I said before, it diminishes the validity of all minorities by creating racism. I gave up a lot and worked hard to get to the academy including going to a prep school sponored by the Naval Academy Foundation before I was accepted. The stereotype that is created by the race based admissions makes people think that I am there as a quota instead of earning my spot which I feel I did. By eliminating race from the equation we get a sampling of the best and brightest in the country. It could be 75% minority or 1% minority. What does it really matter? Everybody has an equal chance and it is not based at all on race, gender, religion or any other factors which produce racism of any kind.

The comments in your post reflect this racism which is fostered by the two tier system. It shows an assumption that minority applicants do not achieve the same scores. THis in fact what is happeneing. As you said, people assume black applicants have lower SAT scores. This generalization is exactly what happens when a certain group is seen as having an advantage. I had a 1300SAT, 4.0 GPA, AP classes, varsity captain of 3 teams, student council yet since I am still viewed as being a quota, being accepted on a different scale. If this is what diversity brings then we are never going to get rid of racism.

The comments on Craig Mullaney show a clear lack of understanding. Let me remind you this is a combat veteran you are talking about. If 100% of officers stayed in the entire structure of the military would be in shambles. It is built in yearly that a certain percentage of officers will get out. There are many different reasons for getting out. This individual like others who get out served his country honorably...in combat. He did his time and sacrificed much. It is not my right or the right of any others to judge him for his decision. He served honorably, thats all I need to know. The mission of the Naval Academy states to "in order to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government. I guess you do not view being a teacher as being a good citizen. He is giving back to society. I know many of my teachers at the academy with prior military experience related this in order to develop us as combat leaders. I can tell you that being in the military is not always the most conducive thing to family life and it does require much sacrifice from you but also your family. Perhaps multiple combat tours does not justify him getting out with a masters degree in your eyes but in mine he is a true American who has sacrificed for his country.

navy2010 · 06-20-2009, 01:32 PM

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The cows should be arriving on the yard whenever the Ac year begins. I'm not sure how many exchangers they have this year but there should be atleast a dozen or so

cows?
shouldn't you be on the WP thread?

cows + usna = does not compute.

secundo's- back in the day, but even that has faded!

Shiloh · 06-20-2009, 04:56 PM

What does one say to comfort the 4.0 non-URM male with 1450+ SATs, three varsity sports, team captaincy, civic awards (etc.) who was rejected by USNA and knows he is is in the same district as an URM with 1190 SATs, no APs and one sport who was accepted? Not a hypothetical situation.

The 1450 is going NROTC but will likely experience that subtle bias in the fleet that favors USNA grads as a cut above. Ironic.

itlstallion422 · 06-20-2009, 10:08 PM

2010... as any midshipman would know, there are a number of WP exchange cadets during the fall (and now spring) semester. I figured a dozen or so was a nice general number, although I am not privy to the exact count... But your right, it has been a long time since the term "secundo" has graced the yard.

teufelhunden · 06-20-2009, 10:09 PM

"Life is not always fair. You are going to have a much more enjoyable college experience than the USNA mid. Do your best in the ROTC program. Don't hold what has happened against USNA grads once you get to the fleet, Navy or Marine Corps. Be the best leader you can be as an officer--good leaders rise to the surface regardless of commissioning source. Rely upon the system to pick the best officers for promotion/billets/assignments....but even that system is imperfect which brings you back to life is not always fair."

Whistle Pig · 06-20-2009, 10:38 PM

Good counsel, but ironically, isn't that precisely what someones might have offered you a few years back, as you might have determined to pursue admission to USNA? "Work hard, Johnny! The cream always rises ..."

Not if today's PCers have any say about it. Can't pass the test? Must be a lousy test. Can't make the SATs? Oh well, they shouldn't count anyway 'cause I once knew a Czar who only scored 350. And now he's the Treasury Sec.!

Here's hoping, praying that the American Dream isn't totally fading into the sunset of PC ...all in the name of EOC and its contiguous warped notions "given" by those who deem certain groups and individuals are incapable of attaining it on their own. What a disservice to all, especially the shiloh's and navy07s.

Yea, that's what Americans want? Not this one.

Shiloh · 06-20-2009, 11:18 PM

My kid got in, btw, was loa'd early last fall or late summer, I think.

The young man I'm talking about is smart enough to know that the "life is not fair" speech is a meaningless, patronizing platitude.

Life is fair because it's indiscriminate... admissions decisions are discriminate.

teufelhunden · 06-21-2009, 12:36 PM

Ok if “life is not fair” is too trite of a statement, how about something like this? Men are imperfect and their imperfections cause systems to be flawed. Flawed systems result in unfairness. Men act in their self-interest which sometimes/often results in unfairness. Men and systems make up our society as we know it. It is not utopia.

What would you tell him, Shiloh? The admission system sucks, you were screwed by an attempt to rectify past wrongs, USNA grads and their big rings have an inherent advantage in the fleet, etc. If so, you are contributing to a person who is going to be bitter, cynical and disenchanted when the breaks go against him on his life journey.

If “life” is so indiscriminate, explain such things as jury nullification, officiating mistakes in sports that cause teams that deserve to win the game to lose, improper command influence in the military (example, a General exerting his influence to pull his son from a unit preparing to deploy into a combat operations area), entertainers who are scum of the earth types but raking in millions of dollars and the list could go on.

There are some things that we just can’t control. What we can control are our attitude and effort and that’s where our focus should be---not on feeling sorry for ourselves because the system is flawed/unfair.

And I am totally opposed to the admissions policy that Fleming has exposed, Whistle Pig has eviscerated and that navy07 has so eloquently described from a minority perspective. But, another platitude for you—“it is what it is”. Go back 50-100 years and the system was flawed because getting a SA appointment was all about knowing/having access/providing “funding” to your congressman. Imagine the legitimate howls of outrage that would have been heard on chat boards if they existed in that era.

Since your friend has some time on his hands because he is not going through plebe summer, perhaps you can introduce him to Stockdale’s THOUGHTS OF A PHILOSOPHICAL FIGHTER PILOT which deals with how man can act with honor and dignity in the face of adversity and unfairness.

Semper Fi, my friend, perhaps we can share a cold beverage during I-Day festivities.

Wheelah44 · 06-21-2009, 07:13 PM

from an '09 graduate who considers herself a liberal-

i was in a fleming class for all of two periods before i realized that there wasn't room for both the students and his ego. everyone has different opinions, but i perceived him to be an arrogant, self-impressed instructor more in love with himself than the material and i couldn't switch out of his class fast enough. he loves the shock value: all this brewhaha over his essay is just fanning the flames.