NorthernCalMother

Having read Fleming's book and several of his columns, I've been "looking" for a Mid student of his. I imagined JUST the person you described, Wheelah. Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective.

Whistle Pig

wheelah, thanks for sharing your views. Trust most of us might have been shocked to learn that this fellow is a gentle, considerate, kind, humble man of great brilliance. Clearly, he's arrogant and angry that the world fails to recognize his genius. Sadly, as you describe him, despite his intellect which is apparent whether one "likes" him, disagrees with him, or whatever, it sounds like he's allowed his self-indulgence to get in the way of his assignment ...to facilitate, encourage, and enable Midshipmen learning.

His pontificating clearly disables his pedagogy, it seems. Too bad.

In the end, one must conclude of the professor that he's found a hill on which he loves standing and proclaiming in a rather distasteful way, what he perceives of his employer and his charges, ultimately. Sad, too bad.

Probly shoulda been a journalist but definitely not a model for and molder of young minds. He'd fit perfectly in that community today.

But...no matter what we may think of the messenger, his message remains sadly truthful, it seems. Let's not shoot the dude simply because we chaffe @ his message. He's not the issue here.

CurrentMid

I find it disturbing that you would value an opinion based on a Mid bailing from a class after only 2 periods because she finds the instructor not to here liking! She really short changed herself and missed an effective instructor. I, personally like the guy, enjoyed his class, and learned a great deal. I feel he is an effective instructor because he does make you think. Sometimes it is the shock factor that gets the discussion going and opens the floor for good debate. Never once did I feel as if I was judged on my beliefs. He may have acted like he was right but frankly that is his prerogative as long as the floor was open - which I always felt it was, and his personal opinion of a student's belief does not get in the way of fairly evaluating that student. Again, I feel that I was fairly evaluated on my performance in his class. I would say that I had my fair share of disagreements of opinion but in the end felt that he respected me even though he may not have agreed.

Just because one does not subscribe to the politics of the instructor should we judge that instructors ability to be a "model for and molder of young minds" Typically, the instructors that make me think, push my boundaries, and show me that it is alright to question the system are the instructors that I learn the most from. Do they change my value system - no, that was pretty much defined before going to USNA. I would hope that most parents would recognize that and have more faith in the job they did raising the "young mind." If exposure to an instructor for 16 weeks changes that value system - there wasn't much of a one in place.

Whistle Pig

Good points made well. It's encouraging to hear that this individual disallows his personal politics or position of power to discourage or diminish genuine opportunity and consequences of disagreement. Unfortunately, tenure protects many in this position and too often the students have no genuine recourse.

Still, noting ...

A nice thought that may reflect your circumstance. I suspect most profs would consider their efforts less than they'd hoped if they should fail to challenge and change opinions. That's what they're in business to do. And it's sorely naive to generalize your belief that somehow more than 3 or 4 Carnegie units are needed to move a mind.

More pragmatically, drop/add periods won't tolerate sampling much more than a couple of class periods.

Wheelah44

currentmid-
as i said, everyone has their own opinions about prof. fleming. you clearly gained much from his class, i did not. his was the only class i ever switched, (er, "bailed," as you so gallantly put it) out of. simply because i left his class doesn't make my opinion any less valuable: i graduated with a 4.0 in the english major, and had many challenging and rewarding instructors. i might also add that four other english professors i had expressed their disagreement with prof. fleming's teaching style, when their students brought him up in class. sure, some students liked him, but many others did not.
my issue with him was his arrogant, insulting, abrasive attitude. i never said that no student could take anything valuable from his instruction: i merely voiced a personal opinion. clearly, quite a few people agree with me, given the fierce debate that has swirled for years around his books, articles, and essays.

i understand your opinion. i would say as much for any instructor i had learned a great deal from.

weski

This is not the only forum that is discussing Prof. Fleming's article. Gundecking diversity at Annapolis | USNI Blog. Similar comments, just another perspective.

Whistle Pig

weski, the USNA old salts are rather rankled, it seems. Understandably. Try as anyone might, and many do, there simply is no logic to this beyond the sad, incorrect, implicit notion that somehow those with a bit more pigment in their covering require special boosting.

Isn't it interesting that no one ever seems to suggest that a more viable, equitable solution to the Navy's contrived top priority of developing mirror images of its enlisted and commissioned membership. In fact the better option might be to recruit more white guys and gals for the enlisted ranks. In turn the Navy would then better reflect the country's racial mixture.

What kind of outrage would that conjure up, one might wonder. Now THAT would be racist, right?

But the bigger question of why these groups must mirror each other to begin with? No one's asking, no one's answering.

JustAMomOf4

Interesting Article:
Most diverse group of plebes arrives at USNA - Navy News, news from Iraq - Navy Times

Note that:
This blows away the good professors claim that Academy Admissions are admitting a group of "second class" candidates as minorities. These graduation rates are quite stunning.

Whistle Pig

I don't think so. Is this even encouraging news? But there's nothing new here, unless I'm missing something.

JustAMomOf4

Re-read the article and the comments - Prof Fleming suggests, and many others opined that the minority candidates can't succeed at the Academy.
Here are some comments posted on this thread:
The numbers reflected in this article prove those statement to be false.
You work in higher education. You should realize that graduation rates in the 77% - 86% range for most colleges is very good. Add the academy factor and the fact that many of these kids come from disadvantaged backgrounds and it proves that minorities are succeeding.
Perhaps you want to claim that academics at the Naval Academy has been "dumbed down" allowing them to graduate but that doesn't appear to be the case either.
The Naval Academy has the highest graduation rate of all the Service Academies, yet Midshipmen often post on these boards that they have the toughest academics. That exchange students from other academies see their GPAs lowered when they go to USNA.
There are inconsistencies here that are difficult to reconcile.

itlstallion422

In this case the hispanic graduates were on par with the rest of their class, however, the African American graduation rate was much lower than the class average of 85%. Therefore, the overall minority graduation rate was without a doubt lower than the rate for the overall class (and that is with the minority component included). With a little more information, the numbers would probably demonstrate that the disparity between minority and (for lack of a better word) white graduation rates would be even greater...


As an aside, since we are referring to only one year, its tough to draw a convincing conclusion for either argument, however, it does lend support to Fleming's article that stated that minority graduation rates are lower than the whole class.

Whistle Pig

Indeed, absent more context and more time, it's difficult to conclude much of anything. But looking@ one year, it would seem Fleming's point is well made. As you've noted Rocky, a 14% attrition rate vs. a 23% attrition rate is very substantial. Said another way ...it's a decreased success factor of 9% absolute, but a nearly 40% decline on the 23% rate. Huge differential. And again, very costly to address. Politically and fiscally.

And presumably, graduating does not then transform the picture, putting all on a level playing field. To the contrary, it's now magnified as there are fewer commissioned officers who must, by the nature of the edict, be given greater assurance of career opportunities and advance. In other words, fewer being given disproportionate opportunities.

For remember the objective is NOT to graduate more minorities from USNA. It is to ensure more minority Admirals.

And as we've seen this week in a seemingly too-similar scenario, soon to be supreme court justice Sotomayor's solution was deemed unconstitutional.

navy2010

further food for thought

Dumbing-down the U.S. Navy

rangelady

Wow. That SAT math number is telling.

Thanks for the link, 2010. I am even more grateful my skinny lily white boy got in!

navy2010

Getting in is the easy part. The challenge is getting out the other end.