itlstallion422

Really??? I have never understood the arguments against tenuring professors. Without tenure, professors lose academic freedom which is extremely important in an institution, which if anything, can be accused of doctrinal conservatism throughout its history. Just as importantly, a university that does not offer tenure loses its ability to recruit the outstanding professors that are to be expected at a top notch academic school.

JustAMomOf4

No. and No. not at USMA. There is plenty of that and it's well documented.
I was just making a point that they both have essentially the same policies/goals with minorities yet you don't see articles in the news and folks getting up in arms about West Point's policy.

None of it matter to me personally, regardless of what Whistle Pig would have you think. The "danger" I see is that angry moms and dads will (attempt) to influence their own children as to why they were or were not admitted and those who are white upper/middle class will arrive on the Yard with pre-conceived notions about their future classmates.

Whistle Pig

Huh?

You totally lost me on your last post, Justa...Can you expand some, please?

JustAMomOf4

expand on what?

Whistle Pig

Perhaps explain, edify, restate, clarify ...may have been better used. Your last post misses me. I don't know what your point(s) may be. Can you help me?

JustAMomOf4

Let's see - the first part I was responding directly to the assertion that the lack of tenure inhibits academic freedom.

The second part was - I was simply trying to explain that this is not personal to me. You seem to think it is in light of your post #74 when you dragged my daughter into the equation.
You can say and believe what you want but to argue this discussion on this particular forum asserts that you are trying to be influential to parents and candidates. Hence, this will create a class of white, male candidates who will look down on their classmates of color from day one. The academies are hard enough without your own classmates going around behind your back or in your face telling you that you are only there because of your race (or sex).

PositiveThinking

This was the featured editorial in my local paper today:

The Racism of Diversity by Walter E. Williams on Creators.com - A Syndicate Of Talent

itlstallion422

Please provide your documentation...


Pointer View - Class of 2013 enters West Point Monday - Class of 2013 enters West Point Monday


Naval Academy sees rise in minority applications - baltimoresun.com

USNA's incoming class had approximately 36% minorities, which equates to nearly 50% more minorities than West Point. While I don't call into question the fact that ethnicity may be considered at West Point, the numbers clearly support the argument that policy implementation appears to be much different up on the Hudson

Whistle Pig

PositiveThinking, thanks for sharing Professor Williams' piece. Do you think he too might be lying about this, as some suggest that Fleming surely must have been doing so in his original piece?

I doubt it, even with the protection of tenure. As with Prof. Fleming, like him or otherwise, Williams' facts and points are fully credible and truthful, no doubt. He's a 30 year professor and longtime dept chair of economics at George Mason University, and a UCLA Ph.D. And he's tenured.

You see, at any credible, and ALL top academic institutions, none can be promoted to associate or full professor absent of tenure. Like accounting and law firms, it’s up or out.

Ironically, while tenuring has unquestionably served to diminish diversity among faculty at many, probably most secular colleges and universities, at institutions like USNA (and USMA) tenure allows for freedom to speak out, free of fear of being fired, demoted, or not promoted. So if JustAMom is suggesting that it's a wonderful thing that USMA does not tenure its civilian profs (and I don't know if this is the case or otherwise), that practice would only nurture and guarantee several undesirable outcomes:

1. Mediocrity among civilian academicians. Younger and senior. The top Ph.Ds won't go there as newly minted scholars, and distinguished senior profs who already have tenure won't surrender it.

2. Cloistered, political realities that the public tax-funders would never know about, will flourish. The process will become ever more secretive and narrow. Would Prof Fleming have spoken of this truth absent protection? I doubt it. Would an Army major teaching history at West Point speak out about this type of injustice as he/she is being considered and hoping for promotion? That's laughable.

3. Loyalty to the cause has its place. This is not it.

4. Ultimately, the students receive 2nd rate education by 2nd rate profs. Period.

And sadly in the end, as Dr. Williams has so clearly illustrated and portrayed, this 2 track admissions nurtures only racism among all involved.

Lastly, allow me to reiterate and beg the question posed to JustAMom several times earlier that remains unacknowledged and unanswered:

Why should a leader of color or whose grandparents' grandparents were born in certain foreign countries be given special favor?

The silence is deafening.

JustAMomOf4

Folks - Know that Itlstallion and Whiste Pig both bring their own biases..

Fact is there are Civilian professors and Military Professors at West Point. There are active duty military professors with PHD's who are granted professorships for the rest of their Army career. They and their civilian counterparts are graduates of very fine institutions including Princeton, Harvard, MIT, Duke, Columbia - to name a few. They conduct research just like Professors at other colleges. The Dean himself is a grad of West Point, Harvard and UVa.
The Academic department prides itself on academic freedom. Last winter a Soc Prof invited a West Point transgendered grad to visit and speak with classes. Admittedly, this would not have happened a generation ago. I urge you to read "Soldier's Heart" by Elizabeth Samet, a Civilian English instructor and Yale grad herself. She is very frank about the academic freedom that is granted to her.

Whistle Pig - you disappoint. You are blathering nonsense. Williams simply re-iterated Flemings assertions. You only pick Fleming's side because he fits your own personal politics. There is nothing open-minded about that.

I don't even understand how 1-4 relates to any of this. But certainly you feel that West Point provides a second grade education - how then do they consistently rank higher in college rankings that USNA?
Nor do I understand the last question.

Anyway - I am through...

itlstallion422

putting aside the attacks on both myself and Whistlepig...

The "Fact" is that most military professors I had at USNA had Master's degrees in their subject matter. Apparently, the same is true for West Point.

Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, USMA

The only difference is that USNA has approximately 50/50 civilian/military professors whereas West Point publicly touts a 75/25 military to civilian ratio. Furthermore, most of the military professors at USNA teach subjects such as navigation or leadership in which they are more than qualified than civilian counterparts...



Have I explicitly stated that USMA provides an inferior education? I admit that I am a proud graduate of the United States Naval Academy. However, I only stated that not offering tenure severely hinders an academic institution's ability to attract top professors. This is not my own original thought, nor is it a slam on West Point, instead it is a commonly held belief on why most top institutions offer tenuring. Furthermore, in institutions such as our nation's military, who at many times in history suffered from severe cases of "group-think," it is integral to have men and women with advanced academic degrees not beholden to said institution. My argument was not against West Point nor the quality of their education, instead it was only on the specific practice of not tenuring professors.


However, as you pointed out, this does not need to turn into a thread jack, so I will return to my original argument against the lowering of standards for specific ethnicities... I understand the need for an increase in diversity to mirror the fleet, however, I just wish that could be done without lowering standards.

JustAMomOf4

right but.... there is a difference between Military Instructors and Military Professors. The instructors have a Master's degree. They are on assignment at West Point for a few years to teach their subject. This is a fluid group who comes and goes.
The Professor's are Army Officers who have PhD's in their field - just like any civilian Professor. This is a more permanent group, although some have taken leave from West Point to serve in country. Both of those make up the 75% number.
Among West Point civilian professors is Father Costa: A Catholic Priest, Math professor who wrote a book on sabermetrics.
The Army feels that having a large number of Military officers serve as teachers and professors is a benefit to developing future officers.
It is simply two different philosophies at play here - one works well for the Army and the other works well for the Navy.

Itlstallion - I actually agree with you that standards should not be lowered. But what should they be to begin with? No secret they have risen throug the years as numbers of middle/upper class graduating seniors have flooded the market. Lots of "older" folks will tell you the great college they were admitted to and graduated from in the 70's and 80's - they would not stand a chance in admissions today.

I don't see any problem with recruiting high quality minority students - all the service academies do this and they all have minority admissions officers.
It's already done though for certain groups. It's done for recruited athletes - football and lacrosse players and it's done for those coming from prior service.
it was done when females first were admitted because they needed a certain number in the class for it to work. All the academies did it initially, and it worked. it got female bodies in the door and graduated them.
The situation is, demographics are changing. In 2014 half of all graduating high school seniors are expected to be "Minorities" (mostly Non-white Hispanic and African American). Right now I think the number is 40%.

I have a problem with Flemings credibility and his claim that black kids who would fail in community college are being admitted. For one thing the graduation rates prove otherwise. Fleming doesn't say if these substandard miniorities are athletes or prior service admits - two groups long known for having lower SAT scores. He also doesn't reconcile the admissions process with the nomination requirements.

popeyesmom

If you'll excuse me for just a minute - I would like to bring this close to home--some personal experience. Just this morning at the local McDonald's coffee club, two former submariners are discussing the navy. One of the veterans says, "It's a shame what is happening to the Naval Academy." The other, says, "What do you mean?" The other, "Well, they are letting in all these blacks who aren't up to par with the rest. They get C's and D's and can't pass the SAT." The other says, "Oh, I don't know about that. My grandson is there this year. He took all AP classes, graduated in the top of his class, did a lot of community service...... And he is black." (This veteran was white, and the newly inducted plebe is his step-grandson). Silence.

This same young man was approached by the white father of a applicant who did not get accepted this year. The young man went to the same high school, took many of the same classes, scored very well on the SAT's, was a Varsity Athlete. What did he lack? Was it really his skin color? Or perhaps it was his lack of community service, his attitude, his teacher recommendations, his lack of morality....... This father approached the black plebe-to-be at an awards ceremony honoring the top graduates at their high school and said, "Are you going to the Naval Academy?" "Yes sir." "Well how the hell did you get it in and my son didn't?"

Yet, this grandson is lumped into an assumed group of underachievers who were "let" in. What do you say to this young black man who may now feel he has to prove his existence?

Shiloh

Good for the black kid who got in on merit! He worked hard he deserves it.

But why cast judgement on the white kid? That's harsh.

It's the Navy. A war machine for waging war and defending the US. It's not the ultimate tool box for fixing social problems.

popeyesmom

Cast judgment? This entire discussion is about casting judgment on a group of individuals. The point is none of us really knows, and neither does Professor Flemming, what each of these INDIVIDUALS who applied for the Class of 2013 brings to the table (and what they don't bring). I do, however, agree with your last statement, "It's the Navy, A war machine..............." Absolutely. But that is not what this discussion has been about.