GoNavyXC

Hello Everyone,

Right now, honor at the Naval Academy is undergoing a transitional period. I want to make clear to anyone reading that there has been a misconception about how honor at the Naval Academy is perceived. While the core aspects of the Honor Concept remain strong, one thing is undermining the very principles of which it lies on, and that is ownership of the Honor Concept by the Brigade at large.

Underclass hold members of the honor staff generally in high regard, but I'm afraid that it's only because of the stripes we wear. Older, wiser classes see that honor staffs in the past have been just puppets of the administration, carrying out the wants and needs of other endeavors such as athletics in lieu of our moral mission here. There have been postponements of honor boards to accomodate varsity athletes, where on the table of priorities, Honor Boards take precedence over a varsity practice. This is only one of the issues regarding honor right now, because we as a staff feel that it is not being placed at the top of priorities by the administration.

I ask all of you prospective candidates, parents, and current midshipmen what the one thing is that separates our education from other schools, and why a Naval Academy degree is highly regarded to the public. I would argue that the Naval Academy gains a lot of respect because of the level of education received, but more importantly, the moral development we gain so that we can effectively lead our military and the American people in other capacities. This is why some bosses would rather take the USNA guy over the Harvard guy to run a project. Honor and moral development and the cultivation of it is what separates USNA and the other service academies from everywhere else.

I see a lot of threads here concerning nominations and chances and all of that, this is a forum for college admissions, and is perfectly acceptable. I just want to bring to light an issue for those candidates or for anyone else wanting to read.

If Air Force Academy can hold Honor Boards during the ACADEMIC day, then why does the administration choose to postpone initiatives of moral development in lieu of athletics? I just ask you that as you evaluate what a Naval Academy education really is. This year's honor staff is challenging the administration to act in accordance with the Brigade's wishes on honor. Everyone has an expectation of honor before they come to the Naval Academy, but it diminishes when it's seen that honor is not as punitive or taken as seriously. You've heard the word "cynical" used to describe the Brigade, and it's only a failure of expectations that generates this cynicism. The Brigade expects to be challenged morally, mentally, physically. Notice how morally comes first in our paradigm.

Throwing our stripes on the Commandant's desk and resigning our billets is the least we are willing to do in order to make sure that honor is made a priority at the Naval Academy. Ever since the EE cheating scandal, the Brigade has not owned their honor concept. We can only hope to move the fulcrum of honor expectations back into the Brigade's hands.

UDMom

I honestly wish that honor were truly an issue...but it isn't. Our daughter has been dating a midshipman for nearly a year - his conduct and the conduct of his peers is appalling. It seems as if their goal in life it to skirt the rules and get away with as much as they possibly can. Getting drunk is the favorite weekend activity - scoring with girls the second favorite. They all seem to adhere to the concept that vulgarity, partying and getting laid makes you a "real" man. All we can hope for now is that she moves on as quickly as possible.

mombee

Where is the honor offense, UDMom? Surely they are not zoomies posing as mids?

Whistle Pig

strikes me as parental abandonment, inability or incapacity to judge right and wrong, or simply not caring. not to excuse Mids, but to blame them is misguided, imo. especially after a year of watching it all go down. one can only tango with a willing partner.

USNA'02

UDMom, your statement of "They all seem to adhere to the concept that vulgarity, partying and getting laid makes you a "real" man" is a harsh one to make let alone to say ALL mids are like this, when about 20% of the Brigade is comprised of females. In addition, these are college students just like any other college and you'll find that there will be a percentage that fit the "vulgarity, partying and getting laid makes you a 'real' man" description.

Please don't judge the Naval Academy or the Midshipmen based on ONE midshipman.

mombee

GoNavyXC, I remember the post you made back in May:

You obviously feel changes need to be made. No change is simple. There will always be resistance. Now you talk of resigning. You are going to have to ask yourself whether you can do more on the inside or whether resigning is the only method to get everyone's attention, and if you are successful, how you will then be effective from the outside. Don't allow the first roadblock to cause you to throw up your hands in resignation. The Ethics Dept was created shortly after the EE cheating scandal, probably as a direct result of it. It can and should be a valuable tool in instilling honor. Secondly, I would ask you to reconsider whether or not this forum is a proper venue to air your differences.

coollege

If people think the guys at USNA are bad...

dbluecap

Loose lips sink ships, shipmate.

UDMom

I did not suggest that every midshipman was of questionable character. In fact, I did not even suggest that the kid my daughter is dating is a “bad” guy. I don’t think that he is a bad guy, nor do I think that his friends are bad guys. What I do think, is that they are of no better quality than any other college student. It was MY own perception of midshipman that was called into question here. I was mistakenly under the assumption that part of the recruiting process for the USNA was individuals of “high moral character” and it is not. Period. I do not agree with the fact that these kids skirt the rules, or get drunk or advertise for sex on Craig’s List - but they do. Just like every other college student. I just expected better, and I shouldn’t have. My mistake.

Bill0510

Well, kinda . . .

You did say that the conduct of him and his friends was "appalling." That "their goal in life [was] to skirt the rules." This does seem to suggest that not only are they of no better quality than any other college student but that they are WORSE than any other college student. Unless, that is, you think ALL college students are appalling.

And you did say the "all" [now you may have meant merely "all" of your daughter's mid acquantances] adhere to a certain quality. In any event that seems to cast a pretty wide net.

Now, having said all that, I can tell you, based on my exposure to many mids and incidents over the past four years, I have become aware of more disappointing "incidents" than I would have thought would occur at a service academy. BUT, I also believe that the incidence per 100 students [or how it might be measured] is much less than one might encounter at a civilian college.

So, did your daughter encounter [decide to date] a mid who is "appalling?" Apparently so. I can tell you that our experience with the GREAT majority of mids, in fact, almost EVERY mid I have ever met has been exactly polar opposite to what you describe. They have been ALL very considerate, polite, thoughtfule, honest, and, yes, moral.

Mids are like other groups: You choose with whome you care to associate and you become stained or praised depending upon the friends you choose. In other words: You play in the mud, you gonna dance with some pigs.

I would have NO reservation about encouraging my daughter to attend the NA. Are there bad examples? Absolutely. Is the NA perfect? Absolutely not. Based on my exposure to mids, however, they are NOT like every other college student.

Whistle Pig

The day has come! Praise the Lord! Billyboy0510 and I agree. Sort of.

The collective stats and ECs of Midshipmen speak for themselves. They are virtually all stellar scholastic achievers and engaged HS students. They all, either by choice or persuasion, are on course to become at least momentary military leaders, and a great many will continue to lead in other aspects of their lives.

Are they above (or otherwise) the average bear in terms of character? That's a total crapshoot. None knows as they are not administered moral inventories. Those of us associated, especially parents, are dying to think ours are a cut above. In truth, none knows.

But what is undisputable ...the are EXPECTED to be pursuing a higher path. Honesty and honor are central to equipping them for the life-saving work they're being prepped for.

So, when they fail in that, as UD is alleging, they are indeed failing in their calling. Does it happen? Of course, and more often than we imagine, I suspect. But they are to get back on the horse.

But now to the real point. It's NOT about how poorly a Mid is treating your daughter. It's about how poorly a girl allows a young man to treat her. And over a long period of time. Turn the finger around and deal with what is yours, UD. And allow the Brigade to deal with hm who you claim is morally corrupt. And you may be assured, they do.

In the end there are 2 very equal sides to this scenario.

Bill0510

Well, indeed, we can agree to agree on one particular point [which I would guess UD would disagree]: the REAL question is why the daughter is going out with an "appalling" young man.
Now we all know that young women get attracted to dangerous young men for a variety of reasons. Add a white uniform to the equation--as well as an athletic body--and, well, the mix is to say the least: explosive.

Is there much mom can do about that? By the time it happens, probably not. That course was set well before the two shall, uh, began to mix.

So, while the young man and his friends may be appalling, I think the very valid question WhistlePig asks [for once] is about why your young woman continues to go out with this vulgar, partying, lay-about who fails to represent the academy very well.

Now, just to clarify, before you come back with both barrels loaded: Is an "appalling" , vulgar, partying, lay-about of a young man "bad" or not?

navy2010

Oh my!!! I step away for a few weeks and look what happens!


Well, my daughter has brought home a stray- not sure "appalling" quite fits, but certainly not what I had in mind-
Not that I can do anything about it (believe me, I have tried!) - although I am not raising up the white flag on this one quite yet.


It remains the mission of the USNA to seek candidates with high moral character. For the individual, it is a work in progress. They will learn lessons on loyalty, honesty, truth, Ship, shipmate, self. They are an accelerated path to maturity, something that becomes increasingly evident with each passing year on the yard.

Do they stumble? Yes. They are still young adults. They have the capacity to be just like their contemporaries, making stupid decisions, doing stupid things, taking stupid risks. They will learn quickly, and sometimes harshly, what is expected of them, and the bottom line is that they will be held to that standard. Are their second chances for those that stray a bit too far? Sometimes- depending on the infraction. But for others, the first mistake will be the last one they get to make at USNA. That is but one fundamental thing that separates them out from their contemporaries in civilian colleges.

Getting drunk on weekends- scoring with girls-
There are consequences to everything.
They will figure it out, and if not, it will be figured out for them. Not always with the outcome they want, but more than not, the outcome that they deserve.

What your daughter has to figure out is if this is what she deserves. If it is not, then she need not tolerate it.

subvet

Oh my!!! I step away for a few weeks and look what happens!

Next time put in for a chit! :-)

Luigi59

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