SJTH

Thank you, Monydad and Mamenyu. As the very happy parent of a first year student, I appreciate the reasonable tone. The very title of this thread has made me uncomfortable and a little tweaked, I must admit. My son (conservatory) and his best friend (college) are at Oberlin this year. They are smart, successful high school athletes (soccer and football) who actually have more than a little "prep" in them, but love intellectual discussion, tolerance and genuinely nice peers. They feel as though they have found "their people" at Oberlin, and have found a place where there is virtually no "trying on" of personas, because people feel extremely comfortable with who they are. I haven't heard word one of "freaks"--because I think that whether someone pops their polo collar (seen it at Oberlin), wears goth, or whatever doesn't mean that person wouldn't be respected. I've now been on campus twice and haven't seen anything outwardly unusual (I couldn't even give you an instance of UNUSUAL) that I haven't also seen at any campus anywhere. My overwhelming impression was about how FREAKing nice every student I encountered was. That's the kind of freak I can get behind....

ctyankee

I'm sure we can all agree on the obvious, but this dances around the topic, doesn't it? Stated plainly, should college be a safe haven where young adults are in a super tolerant bubble or some sort of middle ground between the 'real world' and the bubble? And if the latter, what should that middle ground be for Oberlin College?

I can understand how the phrase 'freak flag fly' may upset those paying the tuition at Oberlin. But, please realize that it came from someone paying the tuition at Oberlin and I'm not changing his words for some sort of misguided political correctness.

What nonsense. Has it been that long ago that you don't remember college? Talking up some girl? Dating? No "trying on" of personas? Please.

SJTH

Thanks, Ctyankee, nice to meet you too. Let me get on my bifocals and re-read the above,

Instead of "trying on of personas" I should have called it "Posers." My son feels there are very few "Posers," because people feel extremely comfortable with who they are.

ctyankee

A. We haven't met. B. I don't know what you hope to accomplish by introducing sarcasm, but I doubt it helps.

How your first term student can gauge how 'comfortable fellow students are in their own skin' is quite questionable as well as the whole 'he said, I heard' dynamic. Suffice it to say, that I'm sure that Oberlin has a student body it can be proud of. That's not the issue at hand nor should it be. Further, no parent, alum or Oberlin student should be down on the student body. The question at hand is ... would Oberlin College be better off reigning things in a bit?

Looking at other threads, it's unclear whether Oberlin's reputation for certain things is valid, was valid, merely a myth or a myth that has turned into a reality. The same parent talks about meeting parents of other students that he defines as 'hippies that never moved on.' Other active threads talk about the hippie culture so this should not be news to too many of you. Also, opinions differ greatly on the reality of it all. I sure don't know and don't have an opinion. What I AM interested in are opinions as to what Oberlin College thinks its culture is, should be and what path they are charting to get there. Perhaps that status is the status quo. Or perhaps the 'it's all good' bubble should be reigned in a bit. Viewpoints?

SJTH

CT, I beg your pardon. When my son has graduated, I'll ask him whether he believes his first impression was accurate, as he is obviously too young/new/whatever to hazard an opinion. I'll be careful not to post it here. Obviously I misunderstood the intention of this thread that you so graciously clarified. I'll be interested to hear "Oberlin College" describe its culture, plans for its culture and path to attain it to you. Best wishes in your informational quest.

mamenyu

Why the OP has an ax to grind when he/she has NEVER been to Oberlin is beyond me - going on about what some parent purportedly said is nothing more than double hearsay: there is good reason why hearsay is inadmissible evidence. And now extending hostility to parents of Oberlin students as hippies who never moved on. Excuse me! I think anyone interested in the branding of Oberlin can get an excellent idea from the student and faculty blogs that are on the website. I have visited Oberlin many times, and my kid is in the con and conservatory, so I think I know whereof I speak when I say that the image Oberlin attempts to, and succeeds in conveying is of an academically enriching, tolerant, creative community. Nothing freaky about it. And if a "guy" wears a dress for fun or any other reason, no big deal. In all of my visits there, I saw one example, and I understand that this person is smart and nice. Everywhere you go these days, including all the Ivy League schools, there are kids with tattoos and piercings: are they freaks? This issue is a nonstarter. I smell a troll.

Kei-o-lei

Let's see what the OP says is the purpose of his inquiry:

"Post #1 - whether there is a line that has been crossed between a school being open and accepting to one where they've lost their sense of decorum (by letting males wear dresses to class). .

Post #11 -Students are trying to sort out where they want to go to school and weighing pro and con - that after all is why students come to this forum.

Post #11 -concerned about going to a school that has become a magnet for the disenfranchised.

Post #13 - someone can test well or play the flute well and still be a distinct outlier in society

Post # 17 - Stated plainly, should college be a safe haven where young adults are in a super tolerant bubble or some sort of middle ground between the 'real world' and the bubble? And if the latter, what should that middle ground be for Oberlin College?

Post #19 The question at hand is ... would Oberlin College be better off reigning things in a bit?

Post # 19 - What I AM interested in are opinions as to what Oberlin College thinks its culture is, should be and what path they are charting to get there."

-----------------------------------

Looks to me like the OP believes that Oberlin should be less tolerant than it is, and is trying to engender (pun intended) opinions toward that end.

I particularly like the question posed in Post #17: what "should" the middle ground for Oberlin be, implying that there is something wrong with where it is right now.

The answer to that is simple: culturally, Oberlin is fine the way it is; Colgate likewise; as is CMU, Harvey Mudd, UVM. Schools have different identities, and . . . that is a GOOD thing that there are different cultures at different schools.

The questions about to what extent "college" should be a bubble pretends that there is one appropriate model for the culture of "college". That is a red herring, as are OP's topics of males in dresses, hippies that never got over being hippies, who is "disenfranchised", what is an "outlier" in society, and whether "decorum is being lost.

Taken together, OP appears to be making a case for bringing all of "college" toward a normal center. If Oberlin were more like that, it would not have been the first college in the US to adopt a policy to admit students of color nor the first college to award co-ed bachelor's degrees to women. It would not be Oberlin any more.

Kei

P.S. Any bets on how "normal" OP's response will be? I vote for defensive and aggressive (e.g., see post # 19)

P.P.S. I do have to thank the OP for clueing this old guy into the fact that "flying a freak flag" is no longer about hair :-)

qialah

My D spent a weekend at Oberlin and loved it. Another friend visited during "Tranny Appreciation Week" and decided Oberlin was too liberal for him. Different strokes for different folks.

I agree with mamenyu: Frankly, I don't get the OP. He has thrown out a hearsay comment from a friend of his whose kid loves the school and then wants to debate a comment from the kid's other son as to whether Oberlin has crossed some line of decorum. To what purpose exactly? Clearly at this point he's got enough conflicting information that if he really wants to separate fact from myth he'd ought to visit Oberlin himself.

Kei-o-lei

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

and dress incognito

Kei

monydad

Coming onto a school's sub-forum and insulting everyone associated with it- under the cover of "someone else said it"- certainly makes a statement. I'm not sure it's a statement about the school though. I highly recommend OP & Co. don't apply to this school, though not for the reasons asserted.

More generally, everyone should visit a college, any college, and make sure they are comfortable with its prevailing campus culture, before committing to it for four years.

Plainsman

What the OP still has NOT done is describe exactly what he or the person who told him "let the freak flags fly" mean by "disenfranchised" and the OP's word "outliers." When/how is a student an "outlier" in the context of a midwestern Liberal Arts College? Any LAC, anywhere? He hasn't defined the universe he calls "outliers" or the universe of non-outliers. Either description would help the rest of us understand what he's talking about.

The OP comes across as someone giving us the old 'wink wink', i.e., "you know what I mean when I say 'disenfranchised' and outliers.' " No, we don't know what YOU mean. Please tell us so we can understand what you're talking about. 99.9% of the students at Oberlin appear totally "non-outlier" to me. They look like the same kids you'd see in Cambridge, Mass, Evanston, ILL, and certainly at 98% of the LACs in this country. If seeing one transgender kid out of 2,800 students is enough to give ANYBODY the impression that Oberlin is full of people who "let the freak flag fly," you've done yourself a disservice by repeating that unfortunate prospie's "observation."

Like I said, if you or your friend's son does not want to attend a college or university where they might see a student who looks or acts differently, methinks your friend's son shouldn't bother applying to Harvard or Yale either. And stay away from Princeton, Columbia, Duke and MIT. I personally know kids enrolled at those esteemed institutions who love "letting their freak flag fly." Just for the hell of it.

P.S.: To the OP. I have a university that i can recommend to your friend's son. My undergrad alma mater. I graduated in '75. Private; conservative; Jesuit faculty. The FBI loved to recruit there. Most of my male classmates looked like budding FBI or Secret Service agents, even at the tender ages of 18-22. No "outliers." No "disenfranchised," although I'm still forced to guess at exactly what you mean by both terms. Actually, there was this one kid who sported a huge, Linc from "MOd Squad"/Angela Davis sized Afro. He looked totally different than 98.5% of the other students. I guess he was the "disenfranchised?" The "outlier?" Should prospies have avoided this campus because this dude was bee-bopping, Super Fly walking, huge sunglass, black leather gloving around campus, even though he was en route to a degree with Honors (he was a friend, so I knew about him), because to some he was "letting his freak flag fly?"

ctyankee

What you smell is your own thread fart. Don't like the topic, don't post here. Ah yes, the 'T' word you use is not 'tolerant' ... don't like things and start calling names. And when an Ivy League parent tells me that students 'let the freak flag fly' and young men go to classes in dresses (and not as a joke) then it will be the same. But that hasn't happened. At Oberlin it has and students posted in this thread have confirmed that it does occur. You don't like that? Tough.

How very telling. What is this "association" you speak of? This is not an Alumni forum. This is not a Parents of Oberlin students forum. You sir are not "associated" with this sub-forum any more than any other CC poster.

If tolerance is nurtured at Oberlin, perhaps tolerance of ideas other than your own might be something your child could 'school you in.'

Keilexandra

^ I think the problem many posters have with the OP is that "let the freak flag fly" is an inappropriate and offensive way of describing young men attending classes in female dress. I don't always agree with PC terminology, but nor do I agree with calling transpeople "freaks."

mamenyu

CTYankee go home! Your response was predictably tasteless and you are rude. More relevant, you have nothing cogent to say about Oberlin. I would report your note as offensive, but I won't take the bait any longer. Adieu.

quaere

I'm done with my homework, so hey, why not: a few thoughts...

I know that this thread was intended to be a discussion of Oberlin and not of transgender issues, but given that the only concrete criticism the OP has raised (repeatedly) is that of “boys in dresses”, it seems like that's worth addressing. First of all, none of the students on this thread have “confirmed” that “young men go to classes in dresses”. The only thing anyone has stated is that there are trans women on campus who sometimes choose to wear dresses or skirts. A trans woman is not a man in a dress; that's a remarkably offensive insinuation. If you view the acceptance of trans people as an indicator that Oberlin has gone too far, then be prepared to level the same charges against the Ivies and most top-ranked LACs in the country.

Second of all, I doubt many students would mind if a male-identified student wore a dress to class - some would be amused, maybe, but not deeply upset or offended. For the same reason, we're not bothered by students who unicycle around campus, or have industrial piercings, or want to join communes, or take a year off to work on a farm. Not that these things are in the mainstream, but they're accepted without issue. Oberlin's culture is not a deliberate rejection of decorum, but a critical examination of whether it is meaningful. We don't have a problem with behavior that doesn't harm others, regardless of whether it's in accordance with social norms. People come here because they value that, and people who don't feel that way don't have to come here.

It seems short-sighted to imply that the climate at other schools is somehow more normal or representative of real life. Every space is a haven for particular social groups. When I was looking at colleges, I visited a lot of schools that seemed to serve as “super tolerant bubbles” for people who didn't want to think about trans people, racism, class privilege... That, to me, is a lot more upsetting than the thought of a man in a dress.

ctyankee, whether intentionally or not, some of the things you've posted seem to demean a culture that Oberlin cherishes. From the tone of your posts, it seems like you're here to demand an explanation or force a confession. The bottom is line that everyone is looking for a different college environment, and Oberlin is where some of us fit. Of course not everyone would be happy here; but the same is true of every other university on the planet, and I don't think it represents a fundamental problem with the school.