ctyankee

I just spoke with a parent who has a junior at Oberlin. The kid is a music major and loves it there. That said the parent told me Oberlin "let's the freak flag fly" saying that you'll see boys wearing dresses to classes.

The parent's other son passed on Oberlin for another school saying it was just too much. The son wondered whether there is a line that has been crossed between a school being open and accepting to one where they've lost their sense of decorum. (my words, not his).

quibbler

The questions you raise are fuzzy to me. The Obie who *loves the school* has parents who question our openness. And someone who decided not to go thought it was "too much". Those aren't student perspectives. Those folks don't attend Oberlin.

One of the reasons I chose Oberlin is because people were individuals. They didn't look the same, they didn't think the same. That said, a lot of them wear jeans and band tee-shirts and silly hats in the winter. The number of students who flirt with gender norms and play with social convention is a very, very small minority on campus.

That said, we're an open place. If a male-identifying person wears a dress to class (which, in 4 years of classes, has never happened), I'm more likely to compliment him on his waistline than call him a freak. In fact, I doubt any Oberlin student would ever call anyone a freak. That's really cruel, disrespectful and against everything this school is about.

Back in the day, it was freaky for people of color to learn with white students, and to earn a degree for their work. It was bizarre for women to get degrees. It was weird for male and female bodied persons to live in the same dormitory. It's strange for boys and girls to choose each other as platonic roommates the way one would choose a same-gendered roommate.

If you take a look around campus, I strongly doubt you'll come away with the impression that Oberlin students are freaks. (Except about cooking and bikes. We're pretty crazy about that.)

kiralll511

Yes to everything that quibbler said. Oberlin is not "scary" or anything, in terms of people "losing their sense of decorum". It is, however, a tolerant, open, and interesting place.

I would say, however, that if you have a problem with the alleged "freakiness" of Oberlin, or if you feel a need to dictate the lines of "decorum" when it comes to something like the clothes people choose to wear, then Oberlin probably isn't the right place for you.

quaere

What quibbler said, so much. Oberlin is an incredibly open place. We have a strong ethos of accepting others unless they are doing something that truly disrespects someone else or harms the community. That means that there's room for people to do all kinds of things and express parts of their identities that might be considered weird in other settings. It's not a matter of deliberately “going too far” - more of taking advantage of the opportunity to experiment in a safe environment. And that attitude goes both ways: there's no pressure to conform or to non-conform. Whether you're “weird”, “normal”, or none of the above... we don't judge.

That's why I came here. When I prospied, I met a huge range of folks (the kind you'd meet at a punk show, the kind you'd geek out about Dr. Who with, the kind you'd take home to meet your grandma). No one seemed like they were trying to fit into any particular mold; they just seemed happy.

Personally, I don't see any problem with a male-assigned student wearing a dress to class (to use your example, although it hasn't happened to me). It doesn't harm anyone, and it probably means a lot to that student. If someone doesn't appreciate that, then they would either have a hard time at Oberlin, or learn a lot from coming here. It's good to think critically about why you're bothered by the things that bother you, and whether those particular aspects of "decorum" are actually important.

res ipsa

What's the difference between a "male-identifying person" and a "male-assigned student"? Does Oberlin have lots of these type of people? The OP was talking about boys wearing dresses.

quaere

A male-identifying person is someone who considers themselves to be male, regardless of their body. A male-assigned person is someone who is assumed by others to be male because of the state of their body. So, for example, trans women are male-assigned at birth, but female-identified.

Sorry for bringing jargon into the conversation... my point was simply that you can't assume someone's gender just because they "look like a man", and that "boys wearing dresses" may not actually identify as male.

res ipsa

That seems to explain things. Are all of male-assigned persons wearing dresses to class female-identified or do male-identifying male-assigned persons at Oberlin wear dresses to class too? Could it be a substitute for a fraternity prank?

quaere

There are trans women who sometimes wear skirts around campus, and presumably to class as well. It's not as though there are hordes of varsity football players showing up to class in frills and panty hose.

Plainsman

^^
Thank God there are no fraternities or sororities. No wannabes, either, for that matter. My D rejected every school she applied to and was accepted at, if over the months between application and acceptance, she learned the institution had a strong conformist element, be it an active Greek system or anything similar.

As a parent, I'm grateful that a wonderful, highly selective college like Oberlin, where a young person can be an INDIVIDUAL, saw fit to admit my daughter. I really didn't want her at the flagship state U, or at some less liberal private college or university. It was the conformist cultures in those environments (the ones we visited) that bothered me and ultimately turned her off. Oberlin had everything she finally decided she wanted in a college experience: small classes, small but not too small student population (Oberlin is almost twice the size of say Swarthmore or Grinnell), a relatively non-structured curriculum, open and tolerant culture, no Greek system, no athletic scholarships, the ExCo system, the co-ops (even if she never actually joins one), and multiple dining hall options. The other LACs she applied to tended to have just one dining hall. Not to mention a cute little town and all those concerts because of a world-class music conservatory. Oberlin could be more racially diverse (I still say they just don't have the right marketing campaign). The primary negative about Oberlin from my point of view is the price tag.

res ipsa

I could see it being a major turnoff going to a school where all the female assigned persons are female identifying and the male assigned persons are male identifying except for a few female identifying football players. It surprises me that the Oberlin application gives "male" and "female" as the only options where it asks for an applicant's sex when the question is much more complicated.

ctyankee

Quibbler,

I don't mind you 'quibbling' but please don't change the facts. The parent was making an observation based on his visits and what he has learned from his son. If a student (in this case the younger son) decides not to attend your school, that's a student perspective and if you don't like that perspective you'll just have to deal with it. Students are trying to sort out where they want to go to school and weighing pro and con - that after all is why students come to this forum.

It seems reasonable to me that any student could have no problem with issues of diversity and acceptance yet be concerned about going to a school that has become a magnet for the disenfranchised.

Plainsman

"It seems reasonable to me that any student could have no problem with issues of diversity and acceptance yet be concerned about going to a school that has become a magnet for the disenfranchised." - CTyankee

The disenfranchised? OMG, what does that mean in the context of enrolling at Oberlin College? If graduating in the top 10% of your high school class and scoring 2200+ is "disenfranchised" how do you describe the kids at less selective colleges?

I can't even imagine what that parent and his/her son THINK they saw that compelled them to describe their observations to you in a way that leads you to consider Oberlin to be a haven for a comparatively high number of "disenfranchised" people. As a conservative parent of a first year student, I've visited Oberlin several times and expected to meet peculiar people. I've met absolutely none. Zero. And I was looking for 'em!

Methinks that parent and son would be more comfortable at Liberty U or Bob Jones University if they think Oberlin is filled with too many people who "let the freak flag fly." Perhaps the sight of a single effeminate male student is too much for those folks. Whew! Stay out of the real world when you grow up, kid. That's my advice for him.

Disenfranchised? I've been in the dorms, I've been in the dining halls, I've been in the classrooms. Oberlin kids don't look any different than their counterparts at 98% of the colleges in this country.

ctyankee

That you struggle with the concept that someone can test well or play the flute well and still be a distinct outlier in society gives me the sense that you struggle with some very basic concepts.

You can bring up Bob Jones University and the like ... sorry not going for that old tired bait.

monydad

Fit with the prevailing campus culture is a necessary factor in LAC matriculation decisions. And not everybody will fit with every prevailing campus culture. Oberlin may not appeal equally to everyone, but I'm pretty sure its appeal transcends the somewhat pejorative descriptor used above. It's a good school, with many good programs, and many nice kids attend there no doubt. Many kids I met there are well grounded, not preppy or stuck up, and interested in intellectual pursuits and politics. They are nice kids, I like them. There are some characters too, I suppose.

But not everybody has to like it. Which does not mean others won't.

If person #1 doesn't like what he sees, then maybe he'll describe something , from his own perspective as "going too far", or whatever. But that perspective may reflect as much on his own set of values as it does on the prevailing campus culture. Someone else looking at the same thing may have no issues with it, and still others may love it. Perhaps those people might have a negative view of the atmosphere at the college that person #1 loves best.

And, naturally, the ones who don't like it are less likely to attend, which is as it should be. Evidently there are enough who don't find it distressing, the kids I've met who go there affirmatively wanted it.

No sense calling people names, even if some of them actually do have some values and priorities that are a bit different than yours. Which may not even be so hugely the case.

mamenyu

Here's a link to the all-school photo for this year: even the "outliers" look pretty ordinary, and this is an occasion where you'd expect kids to let any "freak flag fly" - whatever that means. Having gone to school in the 60's, I think it looks pretty tame. If the OP is interested in Oberlin, he/she should visit before generalizing about loss of decorum.
Oberlin College | All-Campus Photograph