soccerguy315

Huge Texas Wind Farm's Turbines Will Be Made in China | Popular Science

romanigypsyeyes

China has been developing green jobs for quite some time now. It is just us Americans that finally woke up to the realization that green jobs are the future. China is ahead of us because they strove for innovation while our green development has been basically standing still for the last decade, so I don't know why this is a surprise to anyone.

Mr Payne

China is ahead of us because they are cheaper. China can build anything that the US can for cheaper. No more or less. It's just pure economics.

Green jobs is an idiot phrase made by some idiot lawyer in Washington.

bluebayou

Don't forget that China doesn't have to deal with NIMBY's, such as those rich and famous ("green" Kennedy's) that have stopped a windfarm in the Long Island Sound.

razorsharp

It's unfortunate that we let the Chines peg their currency to the US dollar so that that real trade disparities cannot be accounted for in our transactions with them.

MiamiDAP

All new bills will move substantial number of jobs to China and India (Russia?) including health care. Wind Farms is just tiny tinnie example. We are going down the drain, Chinese, Indians cannot wait....make sure to have enough dough to travel there for medical needs.

mam1959

roman - I don't think I have ever seen anyone describe something so wrongly as you have.

China is above all else an environmental disaster. Of course, this is not unexpected. State controlled economies with very little respect for private property rights create environmental disasters of the highest order - much worse than capitalist states produce. This is so because there is little way to impose consequences on the negative externalities state controlled industries create. The Soviet Union's environmental disasters are appalling - and China is not far behind.

China doesn't have a green energy policy - they are the world's largest polluter. They have belatedly recognized the problem and are trying to limit, for example, small coal mines that create environmental havoc, but political corruption and inefficiencies with respect to the rule of law make it challenging.

China is building wind turbines because they can do so cheaper than anyone else. They in fact manipulate their currency to cause an export economy to prosper, and they don't have to deal with laws and regulations - ranging from labor and employment laws to environmental laws - that Western companies do.

How anyone can plausibly think that China is leading a green revolution - well, they must be drinking the Marxist kool-aid - there's no other way to explain.

romanigypsyeyes

When did I say anything about them caring about the environment? They care about jobs and money and they saw long before we did that green jobs were the future and they acted on that. Please, show me where I said that China cared about the environment.

xiggi

Why are people reaching such drastic conclusions about green jobs based on ONE project?

Fwiw, the dominant players in the manufacturing of wind turbines have been European, namely Danish, German, and Spanish. When the United States regained its status of being one of the most active markets (after completely losing that status for decades) the European manufacters HAD to move operations to the United States to combat high transportation costs and mitigate the rising Euro value.

Actually, the American consumer should perhaps applaud that the Chinese might deliver cheaper goods and agree to FINANCE the entire project. For example, it would be a much bigger "scandal" for the current administration to use more stimulus money to bankroll this project which does not seem be VERY promising as it is led by yet another crop of polically well-connected profiteers.

If this project fails, it is better to have the Chinese on the hook! Considering the typical quality of goods shipped from China, it is extremely doubtful than the turbines will have have the necessary lifespan to make this project sound and profitable. This is not different from believing that the Chinese cars are equal to a Mercedes, a Volvo, or a BMW. That Chinese turbine won't be a Vestas, an Enercon, or a Gamesa.

But does it matter? The "right" people will line their pockets. In this case, it helps to be a friend of Bill and a friend of ... Obama!

mam1959

roman - you flatly stated China is building green jobs. They are doing nothing of the sort.

In fact, with respect to whatever green technology they make for export, you can rest assured that they will pollute far more than their Western counterparts in doing so.

I am not demonizing China for merely its own sake; but they have a long way to go, and whatever one thinks of China, building green jobs is not something they are doing.

Lergnom

I have to make a note of the completely erroneous comment that "we let" the Chinese peg to the dollar. We have nothing to say about that. The Chinese peg the yuan to the dollar because they choose to do this.

We are tied to China because they own $2T dollars. They won't be dumping their dollar assets or suddenly allowing their currency to appreciate versus dollars because the losses would be so large. We need them to help finance our debt and deficit - which involve different lengths of financing and so aren't the same - but it's bad for the overall system if the yuan stays artificially low. It's good for China as an exporter but bad for the overall state of the world's trade and financial balances. BTW, China has to some degree helped us by keeping the Euro up more than the dollar. While that makes those imports cost more, it helps our exports.

Remember, if China didn't have these dollars and if the dollar was suddenly left on its own, it might no longer be the world's reserve currency and it could drop significantly in value in a short time. That would kill our budget and would likely crush domestic demand as everything would become much more expensive, from oil to food. In net, we owe China thanks even as we want them over time to be less tied to the dollar so the yuan appreciates.

mam1959

lerg - you are correct - we don't "let" China peg to the dollar.

They undervalue their own currency to continue to support an export driven economy.

The Chinese are intelligent - they know what they are doing - and they also realize it cannot go on forever - there are elements of their government that absolutely desire a domestic, consumer driven economy - they apparently want to do it slowly and incrementally - because that is what works in China.

As it stands now, though, China is far from an open economy and a difficult one for foreign investment. How they make the transition from a cheap export driven producer to a consumer driven economy (or at least more of one) will be a key economic issue worthy of observation in the next decade.

Ten years ago I gave a speech to a Chinese delegation about waiver of sovereign immunity (mostly with respect to government contract claims). They recognized that at the time there was almost little or no interest in the subject politically in China, but they clearly understood the ramifications of waiving immunity and by the questions they asked, were clearly nuanced and critical thinkers. I came away with the impression that I was touching upon a much older culture than my own American gestalt could appreciate.

Lergnom

Please don't romanticize.

One of my kids has lived in China and my kids all speak Mandarin with varying degrees of proficiency. The country is a mixed bag.

One reason they've been able to transition from command/control economics to a market while keeping political control is that the history supports both authoritarian government and meritocracy, as in the ancient series of exams that could literally elevate a bright peasant to high levels. Russia never had a tradition of merit, only one of authority. In terms of how people are treated, Mao's regime was an aberration that is closer to the historical norm of Russia: that the people are serfs who are told what to do, where to do it, etc.

I hear from Chinese people that the rapid adaptability comes from fear and population pressure. They still have tens of millions living in what are basically caves and poverty outside the cities is real and deep. (This is another difference from Soviet Russia; China has the people to throw at problems, so they've concentrated on allocating capital, while Russia forced people into Siberian wastes to build cities and industry by force. I'm not saying the Gulag or the forced migrations were efficient, merely that they were an inhumane, poor quality solution the Chinese didn't need. Again, I'm excepting Mao's regime and, yes, I know people who survived the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward's starvation.)

I don't know if I agree with this line of thinking but that's what I hear. I tend to think they discount Chinese mercantile history. It's not as if there are no Chinese in business in the world and so they haven't had to learn from the ground up. I also tend to believe they're now in a culture where capital is cheap and the markets are so immature that risk has a very high reward. In that regard, one reason China maintains its dollar peg is because they recognize they have a tremendous structural cost advantage and they want to milk that to build their economy while they can.

I think our society is just as nuanced or maybe I'd say that European society is as nuanced but that American society is intentionally more straight forward. Other languages are much more ambiguous in meaning and structure and I think that gives an impression of more nuance. To me, some of that is translation; English has a variety of tenses for every occasion and a series of specific identifiers that many languages lack. We can blunt and clear in our language so we are.

Sorry for the rant.

Mr Payne

We could easily make them "unpeg" themselves to our dollar. Promises of massive protectionism (self destructive as it would be) would make them alter there policies. A solid 40% tariff on any Chinese good would like make them go to a proper float.

They are tied to us because of that. Frankly, we don't care who owns our dollars or why they own them.

We have them over the barrel. They have very little leverage against us, imo.

I believe that China artificially propping up the dollars value is a bad thing in the long run and one of the primary causes of the current financial crisis.

The only likely scenario is them allowing the dollar to depreciate against the yuan slowly. Any other policy action hurts them more than us. The US economy is actually reasonably able to deal with very large commodity shocks, imo (it's done it quite a few times before). A depreciating dollar is only viewed a positive by the current administration, imo.

mam1959

lerg - no need to worry about romanticizing. I am a tough sob - made my money trading futures to pay for this house and grad school - and understand economics. I have represented parties in China deals as well.

Wimpy effete types - particularly those who haven't worked hard, do bother me, though, so I understand your concern.