poetgrl

It 's interesting, Bay, because the exact reason you prepared your daughters for "it to happen to them" is the reason a lot of my D's friends, as well as my daughters, themselves, are leery of the idea of having children. The don't want anything "to happen to them" and prefer to choose their own path.

I hope they will find real partners. So far, most of the boys/men they have been involved with have been very equal minded. I don't know if that is because those are the ones they are choosing or because there are more of those guys out there? Given what I hear about the behavior on most college campuses, I tend to believe my daughters just happen to be choosing the better young men. I could be wrong, though. I'm not in college myself, or even in my early 20s.

Bay

Then this discussion comes full-circle. There really should be no reason to be leery of motherhood. Why are they leery? Has someone or society led them to believe that motherhood is an unpleasant condition?

alh

This is why I start to wonder about those single mother statistics. Some friends, well educated and well employed, after having children, divorced their non-participatory husbands. They could take care of themselves. They could take care of the children. It wasn't worth it any longer to take care of a husband, too.

These days some women really don't need husbands to raise children.

I have to admit not being in charge of your life, and things just happening, seems rather unpleasant to me. We can't plan for everything once we have children, but who takes care of basic childcare is definitely something that can be planned. My own sons were raised with the expectation of co-parenting if they had children and that parenting is a privilege.

zoosermom

I am very grateful over the course of more than two decades of parenting, for the women (and in my personal experience they were all women) who brought their considerable gifts, education, drive, ambition and creativity to my kids' schools and activities. I think there are a lot of organizations that would be diminished for their absence.

zoosermom

I just had a conversation at lunch today with a very successful lawyer in her late 30s. She is at the end of her first pregnancy and not married. She said that she hadn't found the right man and wasn't willing to pass on motherhood, so she used a donor and is going to do it herself. She has considerable resources and I have no doubt she will succeed and her child will be blessed.

I do worry about women of lesser resources doing it alone. I wasn't kidding that if my son becomes a father without the benefit of marriage, I will do everything in my power to make sure that he IS a father. I hope he uses condoms.

Bay

See, this is that way of thinking that has me perplexed. The fact that it is likely that my Ds will end up being the primary care-takers of their own children means they are not in charge of their lives? As though that result is an unpleasant thing that will befall them?

No, they will become the primary care-taker for one of the 3 reasons I mentioned, but each reason involves making her own choice to take that role.

poetgrl

Bay, did your husband support the house financially the whole time?

It's something from the past, for the most part, and women have to be prepared to take care of themselves and their children completely. It's a big choice.

I wouldn't be surprised if my girls do have kids, in the end. But, they will work outside the home. women who do not work outside the home are already the exception, for financial reasons, as well as reasons of personal ambition. It's just a big choice. They know what the choice is. They may get lucky and have some guy there who really participates, but if the guy isn't there to participate or changes his mind in five years? It's not like they can change their mind.

I like the line from "Eat, pray, love..." "Making the decision to have a child is like getting a face tattoo. You need to be fully committed."

alh

Are these the three reasons? I only see number 1 as a true choice. Maybe I am misreading you?

poetgrl: I could have supported my children on my own if I had had to do so. I think that is key. It is an absolute luxury in the current economic situation for one parent to choose to be home with children rather than earning money.

Bay

Do you mean "solely?" No, as I said, I worked through the births of 3 children.

Bay

Must we split hairs here? Of course it is a woman's choice whether to become the primary caregiver, regardless of the reason or whether she feels pressure to do so. A woman can abandon her child to foster care or drop the child on a doorstep and skip the country. No one can force her to be a mother, even if she gave birth. What is your point?

KittyThinks

"Why are they leery? Has someone or society led them to believe that motherhood is an unpleasant condition?"

Like ahl pointed out, only one of your three reasons was a choice, that's already a pretty big reason to be leery, no?

Otherwise, what was established in this thread already, that poor people tend to have more children, means that society has indeed conditioned us all to (consciously or unconsciously) assume that children mean a diminished, troublesome lifestyle.

I personally believe that financial reasons may be the main reason why men don't want children, but for women, I believe it's foremost a matter of feeling respected for what they have achieved (instead of what they have 'produced') and the feeling of independence and choice.

Bay

No, absolutely not. If you are unwilling to raise your own child, then of course you should never have children. Women should not be raised to be "leery" of motherhood if they want children. They should understand that if they have children, they will likely end up the primary caregiver, which is an wonderful (not unpleasant) condition.

alh

Bay, if I were 20 something, well-educated and wanted to have a child, but did not want to be primary caregiver, I would either (1)choose to partner with someone who did want to be primary caregiver, or (2) hire live-in help to raise my child or (3)work out some sort of arrangement for another single mom, providing her with room and board in return for childcare for all the children or (4) some other scenario

I would not just end up being primary caregiver if that hadn't been my plan. I do not take it as a given that ending up primary caregiver is the most likely scenario for today's young women. I would not see it as a wonderful condition if I hadn't freely chosen it. I see choosing to be a mother as completely separate from choosing to be primary caregiver.

I don't think only well educated 20 something yr olds should have children! However, well educated and affluent have more options and choices. Most of the country doesn't waste time siting around debating such things.

absweetmarie

I find your perspective interesting, Bay. And I don't doubt that you're right that women generally "take the reins" with regard to raising children. But the vast majority of mothers and fathers I know participate equally in raising the children, though the breakdown of tasks might vary from family to family. You may be right that this participatory model is not the dominant one. I honestly can't imagine my daughter being comfortable with a spouse who wasn't prepared to play an equal role in parenting. Maybe she'll surprise me and herself when the time comes!

Bay

Well, I see the hiring of help and arranging for the single mom to be the role of the primary caregiver. I noticed that you didn't include: "Leave it to the father to figure it all out." See what I mean about what women do?