datdude

Simba, please...

lonestardad, I'd like you to know that I hope everything you said in your last few posts plays out that way for good. I have a love of people, of all nationalities, and I'd be willing to bet my life that I'm more accepting of the multitudes of people from different backgrounds and races than most, probably all the people on this entire website by far. What position am I in to feel any differently? What would I be trying to preserve?

But, I will state the truth at all costs. Put yourself in my shoes, with posters stating that blacks are advantaged in the college admissions process and you'd feel the rage that I feel. You'd say exactly what I say to myself, "How many days have you ever been a black man? Do you know what it feels like when we hear that statement?"

It is my responsibility to confront those beliefs, unless they are stated privately because they have no merit. It's sour grapes -- anyone could tell me everyday for the next million years that we have an advantage in the college admissions process and I'd turn a deaf ear on it because I'm intolerant of the entire reverse discrimination argument. When we are EQUAL, that's when that argument could hold some weight.

lonestardad

There was a great article in the September 4th Sports Illustrated about the new head football coach at University of Miami, Randy Shannon, who is black and has survived the "mean streets". The article showed how Shannon has connected as a mentor and strong male role model especially to the talented black players who have themselves survived (and often continue to grapple with) their hardscrabble urban backgrounds and lives. The "walk a mile in my shoes" analogy is apt.

I am for the affirmative action programs that especially target the economically and culturally disadvantaged of all races - the Appalachian whites, the barrio Hispanics, and ghetto blacks who against all odds have survived the mean streets in both rural and urban environments. Like Randy Shannon, they have overcome and thrived in situations most of us could not fathom.

poetsheart

Datdude, honestly I think you need to dial back the emotions a bit. I think they might be interfering with you ability to objectively grasp where people are coming from. The fact that a person doesn't fully agree with your position on a AA does NOT by definition make them racist. As you may have read previously, I'm a black 50 yr. old black woman, whose early years were spent under honest to goodness Jim Crow racism. I've probably experienced more out and out racism in my time than you've experienced in your entire 20 or so years. But even I wasn't offended by many of the posts which now seem to have you veritably foaming at the mouth.

I've been a member of these forums for going on 5 years now (posting under another username before the site was revamped), and I've observed that reasonable people of good will can completely disagree on the merits of Affirmative Action. True, some people don't miss an opportunity to use the AA threads as a platform to harp upon what they view to be the "failings of black people", but they are usually the exception (at least here in the parents forums. I've noticed that the kids can indeed be brutal, which is why I stick with the old folks most of the time).

Now, concerning the idea that black applicants have an "advantage" at admissions time, it seems the problem occurs because of a lack of agreement over the definition of the word, "advantage". You seem to believe that there are, in reality, no circumstances under which a black person might be said to have an advantage over a white one, and that AA is an entirely just means to "level the playing field". But that does not mean that yours is the only legitimate definition of "advantage". It would be disingenuous to say that most black applicants don't have an increased chance of admission, over a white or asian applicant with the same stats. Many people of good will and intellectual integrity would call that an advantage. It does no good to assert that most colleges don't highly value minority applicants with decent stats, and that such students aren't more likely to be admitted when they apply to college. Yes, there are many reasons why blacks, on average, score lower on the SAT and other standardized tests than their white counterparts. But the fact that they do is a reality that we, as a people, must undertake to change, not to deny or get hot under the collar about when others point it out (regardless of their motivation in doing so).

My advice to you is the same as that which I've given my own kids: Ignore everyone. Ignore the naysayers, the ignorant, the disgruntled, and yes---the racists, and just work your plan. Grab hold of the educational opportunities presented to you (whether they come by way of AA or not), and run with them. Make up your mind to be the best student you can be. Never pass up an opportunity to study when others are throwing their opportunities away. Best your last best effort at every opportunity. This is the way to avenge yourself. Make them eat your dust. You waste valuable time, not to mention brain power, ranting at people like MovieBuff. He/she isn't throwing a clot fuming over you, of that I'm fairly certain.

In other words, chill. Success is the best revenge. You have it in you. Redirect your focus.

Or not. It's up to you. You can discount me as an Aunt Jemima, or whatever. It's your life.

MovieBuff

datdude, Listen to poetsheart. Brilliant advice.

datdude

poetsheart, I can respect everything you've said. But advantage concerning black applicants is untrue. Advantage implies unfairness in my book. Why should I see it any other way? If it doesn't mean that to you then so be it, but that's a lot better than someone who's had historic privilege all their life saying that. And when foreigners come over and jump on that same boat it's even that much worse.

I sure wish this was the era when we stood up for ourselves.

poetsheart

What's "unfair" is in the eye of the beholder. But fair or not, the advantage is there. Use it for all it's worth.

By the way, when you loose control, and throw verbal tantrums in the direction of your perceived enemies, you loose any rhetorical "advantage" you might otherwise have. A wise person also knows which battles to fight, and where to best direct his energies. I understand the basis for much of your anger---believe me, I do. But I ask you to think about how you might use your anger to best (here's that word again) advantage. Is it really best to waste it swinging wildly at internet phantoms, or might it be better to refocus it toward the attainment of your own personal achievement objectives?

datdude

Cannot argue that. Enemies they are, though.

sherpa

Poetsheart seems very wise.

Datdude: You originally asked if "bad" neighborhood really meant "black" neighborhood. You've received many responses and engaged in some lively debate. I'd like to ask, what does "bad neighborhood" mean to you?

lonestardad

poetsheart - What wise counsel. Your kids are lucky.

curious14

I agree with much of what you say in post #17.

By the way datdude, what is the difference in meaing between and "advantage" and an "unfair advantage"? Horses that are handicapped with extra weight in a race are at a disadvantage but not an unfair disadvantage. Students who are recruited athletes or legacies also have an advantage in the admissions process. Is it unfair. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't but it is still an advantage.

simba

poetsheart: That was very beautiful....don't get mad, get even.

and datdude, what do you mean when you say,"And when foreigners come over and jump on that same boat it's even that much worse."?

Chedva

Getting a bit back to the original question (I will not engage in the AA debate), I want to respond to Movie Buff's comment that Tufts New England Medical Center was previously in a bad area because it was on the edge of the "Combat Zone" in Boston.

That's true. However, I do need to point out that the Combat Zone was not a "bad area" because it was a black neighborhood. Just like the situation with Hopkins Hospital, it was a "bad area" because it wasn't a neighborhood at all. The Combat Zone was Boston's "adult entertainment" area. It contained the porn houses, the sex toy shops, the XXX bars and live shows, the rent-by-the-hour "hotels", prostitutes soliciting on every corner, whorehouses, open drug dealing. People of all colors not interested in such activities kept a wide berth away from the Combat Zone at night. And the Combat Zone was quite a safe area during daylight hours, when all the businesses were closed!

datdude, would you call such an area a "bad neighborhood"? Do you agree that there can be "bad areas" that are not black neighborhoods?

paying3tuitions

Chedva that's an interesting Q. ^^about the Combat Zone -- and THANKS for returning to topic!

worknprogress

Yes Chedva - thanks. I, too, would like to return to the original topic. I have to admit when the question was posted I smugly thought that when I said someplace was a "bad neighborhood" I was referring to an impoverished area with a high rate of crime. But Datdude, you have forced me to examine my own conscience. Maybe when I drive through certain parts of a city I am more hyper-alert and why? Probably because the people walking around don't look like me. Not because of their race or their skin, but because of how they are dressed and how they are acting.

Now, If I were in an area that was predominantly black but everyone was dressed up (not in my nondescript fashion, mind you, but just looking good) I wouldn't think twice. But you are right, at some level there is a racist (and by that I don't mean hateful because I'm just not a hateful person) aspect to my reaction.

I really thank you for your question. I'd like to think of myself as free from prejudice, but I need to examine my own reactions to certain situations.

poetsheart

Chevda, I would certainly call such the "combat zone" you described a bad area (not neighborhood, because, as you've already said, people don't really "live" there), the very worst kind, as a matter of fact.