lealdragon

Do you not see that your statement is just as stereotypical and judgmental as saying that 'all' Christians or 'all' Moslems are a certain way.

Liberal defend the right to free speech. You (yourworld & edvest) are twisting this to imply that they agree with the actions depicted in the speech itself.

You are contradicting yourself, because obviously liberals tend to be more against war than conservatives (now I am generalizing). So duh, obviously if one is against war, they are against terrorism, duh, liberals tend to be against ALL VIOLENCE.

emeraldkity4

It bothers me too on the lack of salt-of-the-earth muslim crying foul when their religion is being hijacked by militants.



Where is your million muslims march ?
My? million muslims march?
Im not Muslim, I'm Pagan

Spanish Muslims decry Al Qaeda | csmonitor.com
Bin Laden's violence is a heresy against Islam - Abdal-Hakim Murad
CNN.com - Transcripts
Muslims against Terrorism
El Fadl, a professor of Islamic law at UCLA, has long been a moderate voice urging Muslims in the United States and elsewhere to speak out against radical elements of Islam.

So when he wrote an op-ed article that appeared in the Los Angeles Times soon after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, he was expressing views that he had aired for years--usually to Muslim audiences.

At the time the article was published, many Muslims were speaking out against radical Islam, the kind personified by Osama bin Laden. So what was it about El Fadl's views that provoked such a furious reaction?

citygirlsmom

ek- yeah she did!!

and what was amazing, was this was a few years ago, and since she wrote her essay, there were a couple of books written, a movie, etc

great minds

edvest1

I am afraid isolated incidents of muslims speaking against terrorism isn't going to do it for me.

My point has always been - why good muslims are not summarily outraged by islamic fascists who profaned their religion? Muslims in America took no action except isolated incidents you cited. Maybe, they are passive. But a good muslim is suppose to stop evil when he sees it. Then what are the choices?

beirut08

What kind of evil can we stop when the united states government most often perceives ALL Muslims as evil. I'm not saying no Muslims have actually done anything, but for example, 2 summers ago, when the war in Lebanon broke out, my friend was so devastated about how his family was stuck in Beirut, unable to move out of the country. I promised her thatwe would start a campaign in the United States, showing how many Lebanese are with unity and democracy and against Hezbollah, one of the hardcore extremist Muslim groups i cited earlier. So what did we get out of it? Nothing. Every moderate Muslim and even many American friends and mentors I had spoken to immediately shot the idea down. What did these liberal-thinking, moderate Americans and American-Muslims say?

"Well, the US government isn't going to buy into that."

BS. I tried so hard to get my campaign off the ground. It never worked.

Last year, I tried to start a fundraiser for Lebanese and Israeli babies in my school. It was a kind of donation drive of blankets and sweaters for the children of both of the affected countries. What did the assistant principal of my school say? Well, he shot it down too. In pretyt much his words: Israel, yes. Lebanon...well, that kills the drive somewhat. People are going to relate Lebanon to Hezbollah. It's not going to succeed. You can try, I give you my full permission. And he did.

I went to one of my best friends, then pres. of Amnesty International at our school.

He didn't shoot it down, but we actually tried the idea at the PResidents' council at my school, and they shot it down.

So basically, I'm saying that there are a LOT of modeate Muslims, including myself, who try to show exactly their frustration and disappointment with extremist groups, but it certianly is not the easiest thing if the federal administration looks down upon Islam as a whole.

ucsd_ucla_dad

beirut08:

It sounds like people need to be educated about Lebanon. A lot of people in that diverse country have been suffering for a long time. I think you should ignore what some people might have said about the federal government and I'm not convinced it's accurate. The brick walls you hit in your efforts weren't due to the government. I think it's great that you took the intiatives you did and wish you luck in your next effort.

1of42

While I hesitate to jump right in to making you look more ridiculous than you do already, I really can't resist.

Firstly, though I really shouldn't, allow me a quick generalization: "conservatives" tend to be more religious than "liberals". Religion is by default not based in reason. Ergo, conservatives are less able to reason than liberals.

Wasn't that fun?

...no, it was meaningless. Just like the tripe that you posted above.

So Christians have not murdered anyone in historic context in centuries. Except for Hitler.

Oh, ok. Well, Muslims have not murdered anyone in historic context in centuries. Except al-Quaeda.

Uh oh, we're at an impasse. Are you seeing how stupid this is yet? For every arbitrary qualification you attempt to place over the issue to prove your point about Islam, I can bring one up about Christianity. Ad nauseam. I could do it all night. (By the way, don't start arguing with me about whether my Muslim statement was true - technically it isn't, but neither was your Christian statement. I'm just making a point here.)

But the fact of the matter is this: Islam, at the moment, is the religion of the populace in a part of the world marred by the remnants of imperialism, massive ethnic strife, and continuing, deadly competition for resources. Does it really surprise you that Islam is being used as the tool of choice for manipulating the masses, by extremists? It's simple-minded of you to think that the answer is as simple as "Islam bad, Christianity good."

lealdragon

1of42: well said.

razorsharp

How about this analysis?

* Pew: 102,876,651 Muslims Approve of Suicide Bombing*-*Pursuing Holiness

102,876,651 people would be about the same has having a third of the U.S. population of 300 million support suicide bombings.

razorsharp

If there are 1.2 billion Muslims and one percent of them are radical, then the number of radical Muslims is 120 million. Here is what Muhammad Habash, a member of the Syrian parliament, said in 2005.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

edvest1

It is more important to reply to Beirut08 now. I'll have something to say about 1of42 regarding his curious and oblique outlook on history and politic.


That is exactly your problem, Beirut08. You blame your trouble first on the school principle, then other people in power, finally the US gov't depending on the size of your complaint. You are always looking for an outside force that's persecuting you, good muslim friend. It strikes a similar chord with other muslims I have talked to. They are brainwashed or misled to think they have been victimized by the evil west with America at its head. I have news for you, US gov't is not the devil. We have built up much of Arabia, give you riches today that some Saudi prince got the arrogance to buy a personal jumbo jet, the biggest, newest, baddest Airbus jet that can seat 800 people, to be used as his private jet. Before Aramco, there were nomads in the dessert. Now you have rich princes flying across the world in personal Airbus 320's. Get over it, Nobody is persecuting you. Back to your situation, the principle of your school isn't persecuting you; he gave you a practical advise then full permission to proceed if you like. It is you who should do something about changing the image of muslims. Start with denouncing terrorism in a unified, organized way.

beirut08

First of all, I am one of the most critical people of the Saudi Arabian hierarchy.

Second of all, who said no one has been persecuting me? Yes, right after september 11th, I heard some of my first most vulgar words ever as a 6th grade and yes, my dad was actually laid off (and this wasn't because of the economy...all South Asian and Middle Eastern employees at his branch of work were laid off surprisingly)/

3rd, I'm not particularly BLAMING the United States government. Sure, th Bush Administration certainly hasn't helped, but what is the US gvt supposed to say to reassure others about the threat of Al Qaeda? I don't blame our gvt's actions because it was out of pure fear. But now, in 2007, we still have that fear but HOPEFULLY we have a little bit more sense driven into us after our failed strategy in Iraq. One thing we can learn from Iraq: Suicide bombers are RESTLESS. I'm sure they have some education division that goes around and recruits lazy Middle Eastern young men fresh out of high school to carry on the next attack.

I blame part of the trouble on the media, education of parents to children, little-town gossip and false conceptions of Islam, and ignorance. But certainly, and hopefully every Muslim agrees on this, the BIGGEST PROBLEM IS THE MUSLIM EXTREMIST COMMUNITY ITSELF.

Razorsharp: that statistic is surprising. I'm not doubting it, actually. But what I meant is that even if 1/3 of the United States "population" supports suicide bombing, it doesn't mean that that 1/3 will be willing to blow themselves up the next day. You see what I mean? Practicality differs from theory.

By the way, I was educated at my sunday school that suicide bombing, even with the intent of jihad, is highly forbidden and condemned. It's as much of a sin as any other thing.

Arabs tend to be more liberal on that philosophy--I have absolutely no idea why. I'm just glad I was educated to know that, even when putting politics aside, hurting others even with a "divine" intent is absolutely forbidden.

yourworld

Beirut08,

There are indeed moderate muslims like yourself. They need a voice. I am tired of only voice we hear from muslim is jihad this jihad that. Whatever voice of moderation there has been drown out by diatribe of hate and violence and that martyr syndrome Edvest talked about. Its always about some dark force that's oppressing the muslims. That's a bunch of crap. It's not there. There never was. War in Iraq is an aberration and I agree it was unnecessary. Bush got bad advice and acted out of fear after 9/11 and he's too stubborn to admit mistake. Im sure the next president will end it.

I will really like to see muslims go back to being peaceful neighbors before all this madness.

citygirlsmom

I am reading a book on the Freemasons (one of the most balanced I have read btw)

Any hoo- the book isn't so much about the Freemasons, but the slaughter that took place all in the name of religion- the CHRISTIAN religions- all the factions killing, torturing, warring and such for hundreds of years

Going to battle for "God"- horrific times, and in the grand scheme of religion, not so long ago

So to have this rightious attitude that its a "Islamic" thing, this death and mayhem is ignoring Christian history

edvest1

So christians commit mayhems too, what's the big deal! That is what you and people like 1of42 is saying. You stand ready to pardon terrorists who consider their duties to kill as many infidels as possible ?

1of42, I maybe "simple-minded" but not confused-minded like you and other liberals. You are confused about rights and wrongs. Far from perfect but I strive toward my ideals in working toward the rights and moving away from wrongs. You move NOWHERE with your liberal precepts but stand and cheer at every misfortune our government suffers. It's us not them. Sigh.

This all goes back to how a defective liberal mind works: taking contrarian views because it's more colorful, making wrongs not appear so wrong is covertly satisfying. And making fun and denigrate rightfulness works in the same way. The rightful position always seems outdated, uninteresting, slaps one in the face. The liberal position is capricious and fun. I on the other hand believe real truths is really not that complicated. On the other thread where we exchanged heated debate, you know the one: "Maine Middle School to Offer Birth Control", I was talking about chaste is best 11 year olds and you are all for 11 year old girls to get the pill because of your twisted reasons mistaken for compassion. How does one get this kind of mindset: one way is by feeding on liberal press because by nature liberal media make more interest reads. In order to sell they have to put out that trash. And one liberal editor will try to out-liberal another by making more bizarre claims. After 30 or 40 years of brain washing by leftist liberal media, a person is so misled and ingrained with this stuff that obsecure their grip on reality.

Unless this trend is reversed, America will eventually fall, and it is because of ingrates from within.