tega

Thank you mercymom.

I think more should be done for the poor in inner cities and appalachia. We are wasting money on a lot of things that are not necessary. The GAO recently released a report about some of the waste in the Defense Department. These wastes could be used on the poor.

I think everything should start at home, helping parents get good jobs and not depend so much on welfare. This will help parents invest more in their kids education, so that they can eventually break this cycle of poverty.

simba

"I think everything should start at home"

I think that is they key theme.

poetsheart

In which case phenomenally successful blacks like Obama ought to have your utmost respect. But of course, I've yet to see any indication that [b]any[b] blacks have earned anything other than your scorn and condescension, whether they take "personal responsibilities" or not.

poetsheart

For the last time, Simba. It WAS NEVER about the motivations of a 15 year old Hillary Clinton. It might do you well to go back and reread what I wrote. It WAS about the motivations of a middle aged Hillary Clinton, running for office to create a false impression about her 15 yr old self, to a gullible audience.

But I will grant you that, in the overall scheme of things, it was a virtually insignificant thing to get worked up over, and that my vehemence at the time was reflective of my personal disdain for the Clinton political machine. In this same way, you insist on inflating the grand scheme importance of Obama's "bitterness" quote.

mercymom

Well, tega, instead of an apology you got a lecture.

"To be honest, I would have done just the same, especially when, Like Obama, I would most likely have had many thousands of dollars of student loans to pay off. "

I am so tired of hearing about the Obama's student loans! If he wanted to go into community organizing then he didn't need to go to Harvard Law. He could have gone somewhere lots cheaper and just as good. If he was such a hotshot he could have gotten a scholarship and gone for free, thus having NO student loans. And don't tell me the poor won't be served well unless they get a Harvard trained lawyer to do their community organizing. That is so bogus. There are lots of really, truly great law schools that won't sink you six figures in debt and you can serve the poor just fine from any of them. This is all a prelude to the "student loan agenda" of having the gov't write off your student loan debt (no matter how large) if you "serve the poor" when you get out. And it's an insult and condescending to all the good schools in this country that don't cost a fortune to say that they're not good enough to do that job.

simba

well poet: You might be surprised, but I did have some respect for you. It is gone though.

poetsheart

Well there, we certainly can agree, tega. The availability of good jobs is key. The problem is how to create them. Decent paying jobs that require little education are rapidly going the way of the Dodo Bird, gone to Mexico, Indonesia and China. The best minds on the subject have already declared that those jobs are never coming back. So at a time when education has never been more important, those lowest on America's economic ladder are not only not keeping up, but are falling behind. At the same time, we are seeing a massive influx of illiterate workers from south of the border who only qualify for our lowest paying jobs, often placing them in direct competition with our native born poor and minorities for those same jobs.

These problems are incredibly hard to solve. It will take a multi-pronged approach over a great many number of years. It will involve not just the insistence that people "take personal responsibility" (though that most certainly plays a big part), not only that self-destructive cultural mores need changing, but that Government stop enabling these behaviors, and favoring policies that ultimately hobble the poor and incentivise business to abandon social reponsibility.

Government aid policies that demanded the absence of fathers from the home was the beginning of a devastating spiral whose repercussions in today's inner cities are difficult to reverse. That's just one example of how poor economic policy has played a part in strengthening a permanent underclass.

marite

Mercymom:

I looked up the tuition for Harvard Law School (39,325) and for the New England School of Law ($33,500). The difference is not that great that one would automatically choose the lesser school.

Some of my sons' k-12 teachers had degrees from HYPS. I am thankful that graduates of the top universities have gone into teaching. By the same token, I am glad that the folks on the South Side of Chicago had an advocate who made the Harvard Law Review.

simba

Poet: I agree with most of what you wrote. I have gone subbing for 4 days (so this is not a huge experience base, and I also realize that with subs the kids are 'super-active' ). What I saw is minority males (both AA and Hispanics) have no interest of doing anything in the class room. In one of my classes, I was helping a girl - when I turned around after few mins. 4 kids were missing from the class.

It was a 9th grade math class. The girl I was helping could not divide 19 by 2. I asked her what would be 16 divided by 2, then 18 divided by 2 and then 17 divided by 2. It took her a min. to answer that. I thought she would get the idea and would be able to do 19 by 2. But, no - she was clueless. So we start with 18 by 2, then 20 by 2 and then finally 19 by 2. Then there was another kid who could not subtract 1/2 - 1/3.

And this is 9th grade.

enderkin

when i moved to my current location i was placed in lower classes for high school. the things simba notes are not uncommon, even in higher grades. however, this is not race-exclusive, in my experience. unfortunately, many students are apathetic, and have been for a very long time, too long to really change their habits.

mercymom

Marite:

You are so lucky to have had such great teachers for your kids, and you are also right that the south siders have been blessed by the efforts and attentions of both Obamas, but it still irks me to constantly be hearing about their student loans ( and it IS a run up to their student loan agenda).

Right now our neighbor's S is having to decide between a free ride to a state u law school (on scholarship) and Harvard Law (on student loans). He also got into Yale Law. It's going to be a tough choice and I'm pretty sure they're going to go for Harvard and incur the debt. Don't know what his goals are, but the family considers themselves truly blessed that their S has the options, even with the debt.

A college friend of mine went to a private law school, got student loans and became a mental health advocate. He now runs a state funded mental health version of a legal aid clinic. He never complained about his student loans, just paid them off in 10 years, sent his kids to public school (which he supports vigorously) and lives a modest but nice life. A female friend who went to Brown ug, then law school spent her whole career in a legal aid clinic (she died prematurely from cancer). Lots of people choose the public service path and we are lucky to have them.

mercymom

Marite, the school where my neighbor's S got the scholarship has tuition of $10,722 for in state and $19,818 for out of state. They gave him a full tuition scholarship, but it's a lot less than New England School of Law. Of course, it is in the south and not the northeast, but it's a very good school and turns out well trained lawyers, esplly the law review grads, which I'm sure he would be if he went there. Obviously, it wouldn't be the same experience as Harvard or Yale, which is why the family is considering just biting the financial bullet.

marite

Mercymom:

The New England School of Law was established, if I heard correctly, for people who wanted to practice in MA. One of the arguments that was made for receiving state funding was that the school expected a lot of its graduate to go into public service (unlike HLS grads who would join Wall Street firms). So I was surprised that the difference in tuition was not greater.

As for Obama's student loans, I keep on reading about medical and law school bills that keep parents in hock well into their 40s. I don't see Obama's situation as being different. Neither he nor his wife came from wealthy background. While he attended an elite high school in Hawaii, it was thanks to a scholarship. I believe it was the success of his memoirs that enabled him and his wife to retire the loans.

poetsheart

Excuse me mercymom, but....what is it I should be apologizing for?

And I fail to understand why you went off on a tirade about "being tired of hearing about Obama's student loans, as if that was central to the point I was making. Explain to me, if you will why you seem to resent the fact that Obama chose to attend a school commensurate with his intellect, like the vast majority of the kids (and probably your own) here at CC aspire to do. He worked hard, and did extraordinarily well, certainly bucking the stereotypes about black students that many here at CC love to smugly bandy about. So he has mentioned that he had heavy student loans. So also, did he ultimately pay them off, like every other responsible borrower. Good God, imagine what you would be saying had he defaulted on them....

bz2010

Her promotion & big raise at the hospital where she works (for which he coincidentally requested $1 million in earmarks) probably didn't hurt either.