kelsmom

Seriously, folks ... there are some posting here on this thread who need to get a clue about the way MOST people live in this country. I am NOT talking global standards here ... in America, an income of $200,000 is NOT ... I repeat, NOT ... "middle" anything. I do not care how big your neighbor's house is. I do not care how many trips they take. Just because you don't seem to have as much in comparison does not make you somehow middle class. You are in the top few percent of wage earners in this country. Even HALF that is in the top wage earners in this country.

I live in a very "real" community. It has million dollar plus lake homes, nice expensive homes, regular homes, affordable homes, apartments, subsidized apartments, and trailer parks (including the kind that should not be lived in year round). I don't make anywhere close to $200k per year, but I can absolutely guarantee you that ... even though I don't have everything I want ... I am FAR, FAR better off than many, many people in my community.

Real people in this country live on $40,000 per year and less. Educated people live on $40,000 per year and less. The new jobs being created in our service economy pay much less than the manufacturing & tech oriented jobs that are going by the wayside. And it is a fact that those of you who think your $100k or $200k is middle class are wrong. To put it into terms CC'ers might understand: Your salary might not be HYP, but it's still elite.

mini

To be precise, $170k puts one in the top 3% of the U.S. population.

Keshira

The more you have the more you feel entitled to. Some people feel that they're entitled to food and an apartment to live in, some people feel that they're entitled to a comfortable living with leisure money, a house, cars, and substantial retirement savings. That's natural. But upper-middle and upper class people shouldn't classify themselves as middle class

enderkin

"And it is a fact that those of you who think your $100k or $200k is middle class are wrong."

I think it's in the eye of the beholder.

I'm upper middle class. I know that I'm not middle class because my family does not strain to make ends meet, but I know that I'm not rich because my friends who are rich are undeniably rich. For instance, I have a house with a garden--we built it with our own hands. My friends have mansions complete with pool houses and ice rinks. I have a 2004 Camry, but I share it with my stepfather who uses it to save gas mileage for commuting. My friends have 2004 BMWs and Mercedes for their personal use. I am certainly not middle class, but I'm definitely not upper class. I'm in between.

Keshira

You're upper-middle class. ^^ And it probably feels more middle than upper to you because of your environment. I'm sure that if I didn't live in suburbia I'd feel a lot more affluent than I do. But I think it is presumptuous of people who earn 100k-200k to label themselves as middle class with all the 'common people' struggles that that implies, because they really aren't and there are people who actually are...

Hunt

Here's another thing: in the United States, there is no such thing as "upper class." While Donald Trump is rich, nobody would think of him as "upper class." Ditto for Sam Walton, Bill Gates, etc. I suggest that if we were talking about middle income, rather than "class," the definition would be much easier to agree on.

UCLAri

Hunt,

I don't know that I agree with you. I think some of the so-called "WASP-elite" in the Northeast could be considered upper-class in a way.

Novelisto

Applause, Kelsmom! Well-put!

tsdad

Or at least they would like to think so.

DocT

It always surprises me the number of people I know who live in large homes, drive fancy cars, take fancy vacations and can at most spend $2K for their kid's education and complain about it.

emeraldkity4

Class Matters - Social Class in the United States of America - The New York Times

I spent a few days in Santa Barbara earlier this month. Very nice. I don't know if I agree with Eddie Vedders comment that " the world is a dark and scary place compared to Santa Barbara & no wonder you all are so *&^%ing happy", but it certainly felt like a vacation spot.

I don't usually in my head divide people into classes.
There are people who have formal education and those who don't. People who have food/shelter/clothing, and those who don't. People who like to be surrounded with material wealth, and those who don't.
I do find that those who I do consider " upper class" are those who have manners, despite how much money they have. Oftentimes those who have been raised with LOTS of money for generations, do have very good manners.
I also am talking about their behavior with those who have less money/education/material goods, not just that they know when and how to use all those forks.

CBK

From a"middle class" NE suburb here, just anecdotal but sure happens all over.
It's not what you make it is what you keep.

One of my kids went to a "clothing' party the other evening, why I let her go I'll never know, but anyway, gave her $20 and she brought $10 of her own.

One kid at said party, parents 3,000 sq ft home, built 2 years ago,over built in a modest neighboorhood of 1500 sq ft homes. Above home is now in forclosure, property taxes on above are 24K a year.

This child had $200 in her pocket, spent $160 of it on a sweat suit. Could be her birthday money who knows yet the value of a dollar is not exhibited to the next generation.
We have adequate income, in want of nothing, have had 8 years of 10K-15K unreimbursed medical expenses for one of our children, one parent working up until last year, decided to do public school instead of private.

We can afford to pay full state tuition out of savings/income for all 4 of our kids, anything above state is up to our kids to get the grades to earn merit money, so far so good.

Have friends whining and griping about paying college tuition, can't understand how we can, and they can't.
They forgot all the winter break ski trips/Vegas/Florida trips/cars for their 16 year olds they opted to do that we didn't.

Again not what you make it is what you keep.

We live near a town of "old money" they dress/live modestly, drive/own their cars, no new cars every 4 years. They have money coming out their ears, and they KEEP IT.

zoosermom

"in America, an income of $200,000 is NOT ... I repeat, NOT ... "middle" anything. I do not care how big your neighbor's house is."

Sorry but nothing is absolute. Said before and will say again. Hubby and I are white trash who work incredible hours at multiple jobs, seven days a week, to have had that income for a couple of years. There is nothing rich or upper about us. It's just a different choice at a specific point in our lives. Other people on CC could stock shelves in a supermarket overnight as my husband does but choose not to. I don't judge them for not doing it, but we are by no stretch of the imagination rich. Just willing to do whatever it takes to put our kids through college and grateful to have the opportunity and the strong backs.

northeastmom

Zoosermom, I am just convinced that you cannot get people in other parts of the country to understand this. My BIL has lived in the south for over 15 years. His property taxes for a good deal of that time were well under $1500 per year. I don't know his exact property tax to date, but if it is a lot, is is still under 3k. He was laughing at the high property taxes that we have had to pay since we have lived in our area. You just cannot compare. A higher income is just required for a similar standard of living.

hayden

See, this is what kills me. Here everyone is arguing about what's middle class and what's not - and the amount we've chosen to argue about is $200K vs
40K, more or less. Yet I mention the hedge fund manager who made $3 billion in 2007, and no one seemed to notice.

Rather than argue about who's middle class or not (and we've already shown that middle income in one part of the country can be different in another part of the country) - why aren't we as a society arguing about a living wage? Continue to argue that we're middle, and those families that make 200K, well they're rich. While people with $300,000 could go bankrupt tomorrow if their child needs a bone marrow transplant that the insurance company refuses to pay for.

Why is it that a CEO can get a multi-million dollar raise for improving the bottom line of the company by laying off workers? How creative is that? Did it take a lot of business acumen to figure that one out? And then he/she gets fired the next year because the underlying business model is screwed up, and their margin doesn't improve the next year. But the CEO leaves with the multi-million bonus he got last year, plus millions more in severance pay.

Why is it that a person working 40 hours a week at a regular job, is not earning a living wage? I always used to think that an honest day's labor should get an honest paycheck. But the difference between the guy at the top and the guy at the bottom is getting wider and wider every day.

Why do we continue to give tax breaks to corporations which move their headquarters to Bermuda or Dubai? I don't get it.

So go ahead and continue to argue about who's middle class and who's rich, while the country continues on its way to eventually having the hugely rich and the abjectly poor, with India becoming our true middle class.