applejack

All of you will be judged by the Lord God almighty for supporting such horrific acts against the sanctity of... Hehe. Just kidding.

I actually recently got to know a young man who - believe it or not - is an aspiring Lutheran minister and is completely out and gay. He said many of the other guys in his minister class (I don't know what they call it) were as well.

He clearly came from a very repressed background, because every other sentence he utters he mentions that he's gay (overcompensation). He's having an identity crisis because he's surrounded by theatre people in a small city and nobody gives a flip that he's gay. In fact, most of the people he associates with would at least qualify as bi-sexual or so casual about sexual boundaries that they might as well be. A guy in my group of friends in college was like that as well. After a while we were all like, "Okay. You're gay. What else? Any hobbies? Any passions? Good books you've read?" He'd spent his whole life being the gay guy that he'd never considered himself outside of that context.

Whether it's ultimately natural or not, I think anyone who has ever seen two homosexual men or women truly in love realize that it is genuine and how miserable they would be without that love. If that is their pursuit of happiness, who are we as a nation to deny it?

Northstarmom

"Before ,I left the car he exhorted If you should ever change your mind. I couldn't believe it. I went inside and told my mom. She became angrier than me. Because, I wasn't totally sure who this person was I did not press the issue."

But if a senior guy had done that to a female h.s. student, it wouldn't have been a big deal. Her parents probably would have told her not to get into cars with guys she didn't know very well, but I doubt if anyone would have felt the need to follow-up with the guy. It's not as if he attempted to rape his passenger. He just made a pass.

Now, the peering over the bathroom stall situation that you describe would have been perverted even if it had been a heterosexual pass.

Northstarmom

"I would also like to see some students commenting on this."

Sadly, most of the high school and college students whom I have seen commenting on this subject on CC have been homophobic, and have resorted to name calling and generalizations that gays are Godless pervs.

TerpDad

I believe most people would not actually consider it a pass. I'll concede that perversion may not be the right definition. Any parent should be concerned if a stranger inapproperiately touched his or her S or D in a non social situation .I probably would have still been surprized in a social event but not as shocked. I believe this senior needed help if he thought touching strangers was looked at as just a pass . What would you call him then? Lonely or Sick ?

Northstarmom

"Any parent should be concerned if a stranger inapproperiately touched his or her S or D in a non social situation ."

It was a social situation. The person who did the touching was another student. It wouldn't be particularly unusual for a male student to make a pass at a female student if the male student were alone with her.

As passes go, it was fairly mild -- leg touching. Could have been much cruder if other places were touched.

i think that often parents only warn their daughters about not being alone with males in case the males make a pass or even attempt to sexually attack her. It's also important to recognize that males can be the objects of unwanted sexual advances, too, including sexual assaults. Getting into a car alone with someone whom one doesn't know every well isn't a good idea regardless of one's gender.

TerpDad

I agree that getting into a strangers car even back in the 70's was a stupid thing for this 15 year old to do at the time. I was raised that touching inappropriately is just plain wrong no matter what sex ,especially when it was not warranted . I'm no angel but there is a time and place for everything. I was exhausted sweaty and in know way expected to be hit on by some one who was offering a fellow student a ride ! I believe in boundaries especially when it comes with strangers. I got the impression he did this before to other people he did not that well . Who could condone such behavior?

pafather

You define "anti-gay" as using "faggot" and "gay" negatively. I graduated from high school in 1978. Growing up near Fort Lauderdale, Florida, kids often used "faggot" to be synonymous with jerk, wimp or sissy. This word was used with no reference to sexuality or homosexuality, especially as it was used by 8 or 10-year-olds (myself included) who never thought about sex at that age. I never heard any adults use this word.

If you define "anti-homosexual" or "homophobic" to mean that one does not accept homosexual behavior as morally okay, then I would definitely consider myself as anti-homosexual by your definition, just as I am anti-adultery, anti-promiscuity, anti-theft, anti-murder, anti-selfishness, anti-pride, etc. I find the philosophy that anything someone feels in his very nature must be okay to be false. I have never met anyone who does not have any tendencies toward bad thoughts or actions. I think each of us has tendencies toward thinking or doing some selfish or wrong things.

Logically, if it is inappropriate to use your gut feeling to determine what is right or wrong, then some other method must be used. I happen to use the Bible, which I think reads pretty clearly that marriage is intended for a man and a woman, and that sex outside of marriage is wrong. The Bible is also clear that no one perfectly keeps God's law. However, that is no excuse to promote behavior that is forbidden in the Bible. This is not intended to be preachy, only to clarify the evangelical position on homosexual behavior.

alh

epiphany: There is absolutely nothing about facebook that I think is wise! But how do you have access to your children's friends' profiles and their parents don't? This may be an ignorant question as my kids were already in college when this phenomenon got big and thus too old for me to monitor their on-line behavior. One of mine showed me a page, maybe three years ago, just so I would know what everyone was talking about but I didn't think you could look unless you were on a list. I guess FB really is an entirely different topic lol

DonnaL

I have never, ever been anti-gay. I graduated from high school in 1972, and everybody "knew" that several of the male teachers were gay, as well as a couple of my classmates, although nobody was "out" about it, at least to me. In college (Yale), the "Gay Alliance at Yale" (GAY, of course) was already in existence, but it had very few out members. I had one close male friend who was clearly gay, although he never actually said so for a couple of years. He is still my friend, 35 years later. Since then, I have had a number of GLBT friends (all components of the alphabet!). I knew a couple of people who, unfortunately, died of AIDS in the 1980's. Including one boy I was friends with in college, who was completely closeted at the time.

And I promised myself when I was very young that I would never be silent in the face of expressions of homophobia (or racism, or misogyny, or, in more recent years, transphobia, etc.) I've tried not to be. There wasn't much open homophobia when I was in college, but there were a number of guys in law school who would rant and rave about homosexuals (I couldn't help wondering why they cared so much!), and I had many an argument.

Now, I try to avoid people like that as much as possible.

Perhaps needless to say, when my son came out to me when he was 12, I was completely supportive and accepting. The idea of being anything else is incomprehensible to me. Although I do still expect some grandchildren!

Donna

alh

pafather: although your reading of the bible is very different than mine, I absolutely support your right to worship as you choose (as long as it causes no harm) and the right of your church to marry or decline to marry whomever they decide worthy. But I am just curious: Do you believe this interpretation of the bible gives the state justification to deny civil marriage to gay couples? This question is not a prelude to a debate-- I promise I'm not interested in an argument (which would be pointless) just in your response. Thanks!

TerpDad

My reason for divulging what happened long ago was to possibly explain why discrimination might occur . Other than those who would condemn it for religious reasons. Whether you are gay or straight there are certain expectations with regard to behavior. Be it private or public, proper or improper. I believe the gray area exists when we try to define moral vs immoral. Society must have standards or boundaries in order to function. Confrontation comes about when judgement is made over where these boundaries lie. These boundaries expand and contract over time. There will always be a line you should not cross. Passed on from generation to generation. Time changes some things but not all things.

Northstarmom

" I got the impression he did this before to other people he did not that well . Who could condone such behavior?"

Just clarifying that I'm not condoning his behavior. I'm saying that as a female, I would not accept a ride from a man unless I knew the man very well because I wouldn't have wanted to have a pass made at me or to be taken to some off the track place to be assaulted.

I think that my way of thinking about those situations is how wise parents teach their girls to be cautious since that's the way more than a few men act. It doesn't surprise me that homosexual men make passes at males in situations that some heterosexual men would do the same to women.

Even if a woman is tired, sweaty, etc., most would be very cautious about accepting a ride from a man whom they didn't know very well.

That as a male you haven't had in general to think this way is a big statement about things that women have to consider in society that men in general don't have to worry about.

I can't tell you how many times some man has made a crude pass at me when I legitimately thought we were meeting to do homework, discuss business, etc.

If a female had been in your situation, her parents probably would have told her, "I told you not to accept rides from guys."

VectorWega

First off, there is a point where kids do discover what it means (I'd guess sometime between ages 10 and 13..perhaps younger now) and they continue to use the words because being gay is often not acceptable to kids (whether that be based on how they were raised or some other factors).

Regardless of how they intend it, it doesn't change the meaning. You can use the N word all day and say that you aren't racist but that word still affects other people negatively regardless of how you intend to use it. One should probably educate him/herself prior to using derogatory words.

alh

NSM- so true!

laxmom

Nope, not anti-gay either. Class of '75 - I have the unique situation of my father marrying my stepmother in 66, father passes away in 71, stepmother moves in with her "friend"...who just so happens to be gay. Back then, it was not an acceptable situation and when the parents of my classmates found out and told their kids - I was teased mercilessly - they thought I would "turn" gay because of my living arrangements. Apparently I find out years later that my Dad thought he could "turn her straight" by marrying her. Sad for him. She has been happily "married" to my kids' Aunt Darlene for 28 years. Me, I moved out of the situation and into my mother's house with her abusive husband. Should've stayed in the "gay" house.