epiphany

barrons, I don't think 'black liberation theology' emanated from the 1950's. I think Wright is caught in the 70's, not the '50's. But I think it was probably said on this thread or another thread, if not, so I'll repeat or merely say it: This is transparently jealousy, i.m.o., on the part of the pastor -- and/or resentment -- akin to the Jesse Jackson et al. line of questioning of Barack's "black credentials."

I've attended churches too liberal (in some aspects) with regard to their theology -- or in other words, too polemic for my taste, when I don't attend or participate for political reasons or to hear conformist rhetoric. I merely put up with it now and then if the *spirituality* of the church or parish is the persuasive motivation to join or attend. I am not comfortable with those moments of groupthink & am not asked for my assent to that line of thought when I enter the church doors, or exit.

Spirituality and politics are 2 different things. ("Render to Caesar....", etc.)

fundingfather

Actually, since the Sift Boat allegations have never been proven to be lies and in fact have held up better to scrutiny than the Kerry view, a "dumb" person may easily be defined as someone who blindly adheres to the Democratic talking point that assert that they are lies.

Obama is also trying hard to get the "dumb" person vote by trying to get them to believe that McCain is calling for 100 years of war in Iraq.

kluge

Hey Xiggi - what's your take on the gas tax holiday? And how would you describe voters who would support a candidate because he/she proposed one?

Hunt

Nah, anybody who does any independent reading on the Swift Boat claims will readily see that they were lies--essentally all the people who were actually there supported Kerry's version of the story. Of course, a lot of the Swift Boat Vets weren't liars themselves, just uninformed people who believed the lies. Most of them weren't there for the relevant events.
As I think about this some more, I think maybe I should back off a bit, and use the term "credulous" instead of dumb. For example, I don't think my mother is dumb, but she does believe that Obama is a Muslim sleeper agent.

mini

"Obama is also trying hard to get the "dumb" person vote by trying to get them to believe that McCain is calling for 100 years of war in Iraq."

He's actually calling for worse (a 100-year occupation, in a nation which has already endured an aggressive, hostile occupation, with 4.4 million displaced individuals - including 2.2 million refugees, a million widows, two million orphans, a health system destroyed by the occupiers, lawyers, doctors, engineers, teachers in exile, ethnic cleansing of its capital city, and armed thugs armed by the United States to "keep the peace". 100 years of that, in which not a single U.S. soldier is killed or harmed. What has this cipher been smokin'?)

fundingfather

If you believe this, then you certainly have not done the "independent reading of the Swift Boat claims" that is required to make any assertion on this matter.

Hunt

Actually, I did do my homework on the Swift Boats. Here's one example:

FactCheck.org: Republican-funded Group Attacks Kerry's War Record. Wikipedia lays it out pretty well, too.

There are others. Don't believe what Rush tells you. The whole thing was a political smear job, using a few liars and some well-meaning, but credulous people.

fundingfather

Hunt, Hunt, Hunt ... too bad you don't follow your own advice and not just listen to what others say and perhaps even read your own sources, which conclude:
Of course your source also contradicts your notion that "essentially all those who were there supported Kerry's version" .

Here's the facts: there are two contradictory stories about what happened with Kerry in Vietnam. We know that Kerry has had to back down on at least one of his assertions (Christmas in Cambodia) but as to the other stories, there are conflicting eyewitness testimonies (but yet the physical and logical evidence is on the side of the Swifties - how do you explain no injuries and no bullet holes in aluminum boats that undergo "whithering fire" while they all pause to salvage the mined boat? Perhaps the VC were shooting blanks?) On another issue it is Kerry's word versus that of an Admiral whose story is also backed up by logic. Yet, somehow from this mess of conflicting evidence you are able to ascertain that the Swifties are liars. Who's the "dumb" one here?

Hunt

But see, I actually read the whole thing, and I know that both Kerry's own crewmates and the Navy's records support him. I also read multiple accounts. There are conflicting stories on some of the details, sure, but overall, Kerry's version is the one that's supported, and several of the Swift Boat people had to admit that they were simply reporting hearsay. I can't help adding that we're still debating the details of the Viet Nam service of the candidate in that election who actually WENT to Viet Nam. But if you want to believe that Kerry was the coward, and that Bush was the hero, go ahead.

fundingfather

"But if you want to believe that Kerry was the coward, and that Bush was the hero, go ahead."

No one, including Bush, is trying to make him out to be a hero. Unlike Kerry who would likely never had received the nomination were it not for him playing "the hero". This is the same Kerry who first try to avoid military service entirely by getting a deferment for grad school. When that failed, he joined the service which was believed to be the safest during the Vietnam conflict - the Navy. When he volunteered for Swift Boat duty, that type of duty was extremely safe; only after he got into it was the role of Swift Boats re-defined into something dangerous. Once he got into that duty, he was on a mission to accumulate his necessary 3 purple hearts to get the heck out of there. If this meant that he had to twist events and people's arms to get a purple heart for the equivalent of a thorn in his hand so be it. All the Swift Boat Vets did was expose this fraud of a hero for what he was.

As far as the Navy records are concerned, is there any doubt that they support the Kerry view when Kerry was the likely author of them?

Hunt

It's been shown that he wasn't the author of them. But what's the point in arguing about it? You have your version of reality, in which Kerry was a coward, contrary to the men who actually served with him. My version of reality is that Bush pulled family strings to keep out of going to Viet Nam, but I can't prove it. I know Cheney used five deferments, because "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service." (Check out this article for decisive action Cheney took to secure one of his deferments: How Dick Cheney dodged the draft. - By Timothy Noah - Slate Magazine)
The fact that it was Kerry who had to defend his patriotism and service is, to me, the ultimate example of the kind of credulousness I'm talking about.

poetsheart

Cheney can state that "he had other priorities in the '60's than military service" and nobody gets their knickers in a twist. But let Jeremiah Wright point out the contrast between his own voluntary enlistment in the Marines during that time (he actually left college to do so), to Cheney's lack of service, and now you have the words of a "divisive hate mongerer"

xiggi

Hard to believe that people are STILL interested in debating that Washington, DC empty suit's fantastic stories. Don't you know that all those VC who were shooting blanks moved to Bosnia to practice their sniper skills?

fundingfather

"It's been shown that he wasn't the author of them."

Actually, it's the other way around. The after-action report was written from the Coast Guard Cutter Spencer and only three officers from the mission were on the Spencer after the mission. One of them was the wounded skipper of the mined boat (Pease) and another was the skipper of one of the other boats (Droz) who then had to take Pease to another boat 20 miles away for care, leaving Kerry as the only remaining officer onboard the Spencer to write the after-action report.

As to the credibility of Kerry, here are three accounts of the same incident (his first purple heart account), all provided by Kerry:

To Tim Russert:
Kerry in TOUR OF DUTY:
From his journal after the presumed skimmer boat incident which was the "most frightening night in Vietnam":

So, with that kind of consistency is there any wonder that people question his veracity?


Your attempts to divert the discussion from your unfounded allegations of Swift Boat liars to Bush and Cheney are very telling.

fundingfather

"Hard to believe that people are STILL interested in debating that Washington, DC empty suit's fantastic stories."

The only reason for the debate today is that people like Hunt and Obama will use the term "Swift Boat" as a verb, a synonym for an unfounded political smear job when the reality is that they have absolutely no proof as to which side is telling the truth and therefore it is they who are doing the smearing. But, they will rely on the fact that if they say it often enough, people will believe it - the same MO that mini uses with his "Clinton engaged in genocide", or Petreaous was involved with ethnic cleansing, or McCain wants to have a hostile occupation of Iraq for 100 years.