kathiep

Same with our gun laws - the criminals will be the ones that don't obey them. So maybe we shouldn't have gun laws. We all break the speeding laws, maybe we shouldn't have them either.

1of42

kathiep: That is one of the more compelling arguments against gun control, yes.

Speeding laws are different, because while everybody breaks them they generally break them only incrementally - so you set them somewhere because you know that while people break them it won't be by that much. Personally, I'd rather instead of speed limits have "speed ranges" - for which you can be ticketed both above and below - because slow drivers on a fast road are just as dangerous as fast ones.

galoisien

Codified law should reflect the common law contained in the social contract; a law imposed against the will of the population it is imposed on might as well not be a law at all.

vicariousparent

There is no moral justification for forbidding 18 year olds to drink while encouraging them to serve in the military.

But Hanna makes a good point:

This is something law students struggle with all the time -- do you prioritize passing laws that create positive change in the society, or do you prioritize passing laws that reflect some underlying principle or truth?

rocketman08

I agree that a more "European" approach to alcohol with lower legal ages and the social idea of introducing moderate alcohol consumption as an acceptable part of a healthy lifestyle (vs the forbidden fruit that it is in this country) makes much more sense... however, from a practical standpoint I really don't see how we can transition from our current system to that system and thus I don't see the laws changing anytime soon.

alwaysamom

I hope that from your use of a smiley you know that wasn't what I meant. You insinuated that the reason for not allowing a law which permitted kids to drink under a parent's supervision would be because of the possibility of utterly irresponsible behavior by certain parents, who are probably already doing the ridiculous things you detailed. That doesn't mean that there would be no benefit in allowing for such a law so that responsible drinking, with supervision, can be modeled and learned.

Hanna

"allowing for such a law so that responsible drinking, with supervision, can be modeled and learned."

You know that this currently IS the law, right? I think that that's the case in every state.

alwaysamom

I wasn't aware that it was the law in every state. It seems that every time this discussion arises on CC, there are many people who comment that it is not the law where they live.

Hanna

People may not know what the law is. But if anyone has a cite to a state or local law barring parents from drinking wine with their kids, I'm very interested to learn about that. (Is there some kind of exception for Communion/Passover wine?)

kathiep

I'm not really sure what the law is in PA in regards to social drinking. I wouldn't feel comfortable serving my kids anything including wine so have not really looked into it. We just don't drink wine with dinner so it would be out of the ordinary to whip some out and offer it up to the kids.

Alwaysamom, Yes, I was just kidding you, hope you don't mind.

I found this when I googled, "Pennsylvania drinking laws, parents"

Underage drinking laws take aim at parents

"The drinking age is 21 in each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. All states prohibit adults from purchasing alcohol for minors or furnishing it to them, though most make exceptions for children partaking in religious ceremonies and those given alcohol in non-intoxicating amounts by parents in private homes.

When it comes to underage drinking parties, many counties, cities and towns adopted zero-tolerance policies for youth possession and consumption years ago. Social host laws widen the scope of enforcement to make parents responsible when they allow minors to possess or consume alcohol.

An adult can face probation, steep fines and jail time and can be sued for damages caused by minors who drank under the adult's supervision."

Just found this, but they didn't site the law, so not sure of the original source:

Debate on kids, drinking - York, Pennsylvania
" It is a crime in Pennsylvania for an adult to provide alcohol to minors, or for an adult who allows a minor to possess it on a "premises or property owned or controlled by the person in charge." Fines are $1,000 to $2,500 for the first violation and $2,500 thereafter.

kathiep

The power of google.... This site states the drinking laws state by state with some omissions, one of them being ....PA!

National Youth Rights Association - Drinking Age and Alcohol Laws for All 50 States

galoisien

I'm in the moral deontologist camp and am quite uneasy with consequentialism, which seem highly dangerous. Supposed "positive effects" that both infringe on liberty and moral principles take a shortcut to justice and will have hidden negative effects. (Ce qu'on voit et ce qu'on ne voit pas.) Of course, I'm speaking as a naive 18-year-old.

MichaelNKat

In Pennsylvania, it is a criminal offense to serve anyone under 21 any beverage with an alcohol content of .5% or greater. Yep, that's right, one half of one percent! This includes so called "non-alcoholic" beers if their contents hit the .5% mark. The ONLY exception is for religious ceremonial purposes in the privacy of one's home or in a house of worship and even then the amount served must be reasonable and limited to the amount normally consumed for such purposes. (See chapter 63 of the PA Criminal Code.)

The problem with a law that relegates alcohol to the category of an age based status offense (i.e. conduct that is otherwise lawful is criminalized based on age) is that such a law ducks the real issues that need to be addressed. It is an easy "quick fix" which enables our legislators and communities to feel like they are acting responsibly when in actuality what is needed is a family and community based system of parenting and support that teaches responsible decision making to our kids and does not criminalize them for minor indiscretions. There is nothing magical about hitting 21 notwithstanding the "studies" that "prove" the efficacy of such laws (many of which are designed to establish the preconceived notion that such laws are the right solution or otherwise lack real scientific controls). Moreover, an approach of aged based criminalization ignores the reality that such laws are easy to evade and that upon hitting 21, a person often is as unprepared to consume alcohol responsibly as they were at 18 or even 16. The amount of drinking that goes on behind cover in high school, the excessive drinking that so frequently occurs at colleges, make clear that stigmatizing our kids with criminalization, while an "easy fix", is not the right answer. It doesn't solve the problem, it just makes us "feel good" about doing something. What is needed is good effective parenting and community support systems that teach kids to make smart responsible decisions. But that takes a whole lot of effort, commitment, understanding thought and time, things that have fallen out of favor in a society that has become increasingly judgmental of our youth and in need of "quick fixes" for complex issues.

galoisien

Shouldn't they regulate drinks based on molar mass of ethanol consumed?

I mean, I'm sure 6 cans of .5% and 1 can of 3% will turn out to be the same thing. I don't know what the "molar mass of ethanol consumed to blood alcohol level increase" formula is (though it is true that the rate of molar mass consumed over time is also an important factor besides pure quantity), but a ration card with personal ID makes more sense if you want to regulate blood alcohol levels.

MichaelNKat

You are assuming there's any real science to these aged based laws, as opposed to concepts of "morality", fear and a desire to have a simple quick "fix" to a perceived problem. What you are suggesting would take a level of thought, resources and administrative functioning that we, as a society, are unwilling or incapable of committing. (Also, 6 x .5 is not the same as 1 x 3 when you factor in rate of consumption and time to metabolize the alcohol.)