Hunt

I wouldn't let an 18-year-old straight boy do this to meet girls in a strange city where he doesn't speak the language and has no experience with drinking. The whole idea is creepy.

cptofthehouse

If I were taking any of my sons on a vacation with me, it would be a time together type of thing. I would be insulted and considered it rude if he told me he was going out to "cruise". The same with my brothers who are middle aged adults. I don' t look at it as a safety or gay issue, but plain ol' manners and consdieration.

My husband had this problem with oldest son a few years ago when he and some of my boys went to the Superbowl. Son wanted to go to some parties instead of sticking with the family. H told him that this was a G-rated family trip and not a time to go out solo. As an adult, of course son could go where he wanted, (he was >21), but in terms of courtesy and the purpose of the trip, it was not what his benefactor wanted.

Consolation

You know, I've been thinking about this some more, and I realized that when I was his age, back in the 70s, I went out at night to bars and clubs in London with my cousin, who was about 4 or 5 years older.

I did exactly what he said he wants to do: I had a few [weak] drinks, I sometimes danced a little, and I talked to guys and flirted a little. That's it. It really is not necessarily that big a deal.

The problem in his case is that he will be alone. I don't see anything wrong with letting him stretch his wings a little bit. Why not let him go to the youth-oriented thing Calmom found, with taxi money and a strict curfew? You can spend a few hours with a good book. I don't see this as creepy or rude. It's part of the experience.

bz2010

LOTS of walking to do in Rome - he'll be worn out by the end of the day.

Plus - the dinner hour runs so late that it will be getting close to 11:00 by the time you're done eating.

All things considered, what I said earlier & was corroborated by other posts -I'd be surprized if he really wants for follow thru w/ his plan.

Good opportunity to have some talks about safety & judgement tho'.
Good luck!

Chedva

Consolation, two differences - 1) you weren't alone (as you pointed out) and 2) you knew the language (at least most of it!)

Sequoia

^ Third difference - times were different in the '70s. Students went backpacking all over Europe on their own too. Today, with the economic hardships and so forth, new families of hard drugs etc., there is a much higher risk for crime, especially towards obvious visitors, in any city, including in the US.

ilsa belter

I wouldn't be at all surprised if he wants to go through with his plan, no matter the heat, etc. He's a kid with great reserves of stamina, like most, I presume. If I were taking my hypothetical daughter on a trip to Rome, and she expressed a desire for heterosexual "experience" of the kind the OP's son related, I would be horrified. I think this boy is taking advantage of his Mom's perceived liberalism in this area big time and/or is testing boundaries. I think pafather was absolutely correct that the boy should be taken down a few pegs, even putting aside safety issues (and no, the OP is not being "overprotective" in the least). Just my personal opinion.

ucsd_ucla_dad

This was my reaction when I read through the post. He'll have the target in several different ways -

- As an obvious tourist out alone at night in a city he doesn't know possibly accidentally ending up in not the best areas of town - an easy victim of crime.

- As an obvious target to be taken advantage of by older and more experienced people once he gets to his bars.

- As a potential victim for predators who sometimes hang out at gay bars looking for victims to rob/assault.

What he wants to do has red flags all over it.

middsmith

What? I can't believe some parents go as far as suggesting OP to cancel the trip. Next year, her son will go to college. When is the chance that they both go on a trip together? Probably very low.
OP's son is not having risky business in some shaddy back alley. He just wants to have some fun. Spare him 2 hours a night and let him be.

toneranger

I absolutely can't imagine my son asking to cruise bars alone in foreign country when on a planned trip with me - even if he was 25 or 35. It's just not right. As I see it, it would be our time together and I would expect that we would both do our best to find common activities that we enjoy. Sightseeing, eating at great restaurants, maybe some hiking, perhaps watching a movie in the evening. He can go with his buddies on another trip and cruise bars... on his own dime.
I wouldn't cancel the trip...but I would point out what the expectations are. I also wouldn't wait until you go and "hope" that he's too tired to go through with his plans. I would just tell him I'm very uncomfortable with the idea, - and if he still insists, maybe a trip somewhere else makes more sense - perhaps somewhere less urban. I would also point out that it's not an issue of being gay - it's just what you expect from your son as a travel partner. He'll have many years to do the "wild thing" on his own time.

Lafalum84

It seems to me that the whole point of this was to be a mother-and-son trip. So it's not appropriate for son to be announcing that he will be spending his evenings without mom. Just as it would be inappropriate for her to announce that she's leaving him in the hotel to go out drinking with men.

The safety issue for me is HUGE. Unfamiliar city. Don't speak the language. Not used to public transit. Physically a small person. And I'm sorry, but everyone I know who has been to Rome has reported that it is not among the safest/cleanest places they've ever been. And there's the ALONE factor - not even a buddy along!

I'd have a talk with DS. The trip is about spending time together. If that's not what he wants to do (he's 18, it's understandable!) then cancel the trip.

There is no way I'd let an 18 year old who doesn't speak the language wander around a foreign city at night ALONE.

I don't buy middsmith's argument that he can do whatever he wants at college. At college he'll speak the language and have buddies around. This is a different situation entirely.

Either the two of you get on the same page about the purpose of the trip and the guidelines (your money, your guidelines!) or cancel the trip. Don't even bother to threaten, just cancel it and do some fun mom-son stuff closer to home.

cptofthehouse

The boy is 18. If he wants to go cruising in Rome, he can certainly do so on his dime and time. I think it is really an "in your face" rude thing to tell your mother who is taking you on a mother/son, trip that you want to go out cruising. Even with the assurance (ha, ha) that you are not going to "do anything". Any mother would be sitting in the hotel room worrying. If anything terrible should happen it would be an additional load on Mom as well. It's not the fact that he wants to go out that is the issue. It's the circumstances under which he wants to do this.

I think all of us as parents do need to have a serious talk with our kids of the many dangers out there, including cruising, hanging out, going to strange places alone, picking up strangers, etc, etc. However, this is not the occaision. Mom want to enjoy a trip to Europe with son without this kind of worry. I think it is rude of the kid to even say such a thing.

DonnaL

Wow. I just signed on for the first time since last night, and I see there've been quite a few responses.

First of all, pafather, please don't be so obnoxious and offensive. I'm quite genuine, and so is my son! What do you want, identification? And what do you mean, he "says" he's gay??

What's this business lately where anytime someone doubts what someone says, they come on and essentially accuse them of being a liar or a troll? Other than trying to be a smartass, I'm not sure what's accomplished.

Also, I'm not by any means discounting the potential safety issues; that's why I began the thread! And I think a lot of the advice has been wonderful, and I do plan to check out all the links. But insofar as my son's intentions go, where does all this nonsense about encouraging "sexual escapades" and "cruising for men" stuff come in? I didn't say anything remotely suggesting that that's what he wanted to do, and neither did my son to me. And, no, I'm not "encouraging" anything like that.

He wants to find a place where he can hang out for a couple of hours and watch other gay guys, and maybe have some wine, and maybe do some dancing. Something he loves to do, but, guess what, despite all the dancing he did at the prom this year and at the "project graduation" parties, he's never danced with another boy in his life!

And he already told me he wants to find someplace where there's a young crowd. He has no interest whatsoever in older guys, fortunately -- college boys seem to be his preferred demographic -- and wouldn't want to end up in a bar full of 45-year old leather guys any more than I'd want him there.

Obviously, a lot of research is necessary.

(Which reminds me a little of the first time I let him walk around Greenwich Village by himself at all, two years ago when I was at a fundraiser for something downtown and I gave him exactly an hour to take a walk -- he was back at the appointed time, and told me he'd walked up and down Christopher Street, and I asked him how he liked it, and he said it was fine, except he was disappointed that everyone there was so old. Old, I said? Yes, he said -- most of them were at least 30! He wasn't joking.)

And, believe it or not, he happens to have very strong feelings about not wanting to have sex with anyone he's not in love with.

So, I think calling PFLAG and doing the equivalent of staging an intervention is a bit premature, perhaps.

If I can figure out a way he can do anything like this safely (and the Gay Village idea sounds fantastic), then, you know what? I think it would be great.

Sometimes I think people can be a little oblivious to how hard, how lonely, and how alienating it is to grow up in an overwhelmingly heterocentric world, where straight people already have 98% of the cultural pie (and there are some who aggressively seek 100%!). The world of a small, affluent North Jersey suburb, once a Republican town but a place where most people vote Democratic now, a place where my son faced no open hostility despite starting to come out to people at school as gay six years ago, when he was 12. But still a place where he was one of only three "out" gay kids in his class even by the time he was a senior, and one of only a handful in his whole school -- every single one of them, I think, associated in some way with the Drama Club! A place with nobody to be "interested" in, once he realized years ago that getting crushes on straight boys was a self-destructive thing to do. A place where every little first step of heterosexual teenage romance receives cultural approbation, applause, and encouragement -- first date, first kiss, first dance, how cute, how lovely! But where the idea of two high school boys interested in each other would be viscerally upsetting to most parents.

A place where all his close friends have been girls (because for years, boys were afraid to be seen as his friends), who confide in him all the time about their romances and loves and boyfriends, and he listens, and gives support, and never has anything of his own. Never kissed anyone, never held hands with anyone, never taken a walk with someone he likes.

Is he less deserving than they are? I don't think so. I still remember a few years ago, when he was 14 or 15 and I asked him what he wanted for Hanukkah, and he said, "can you get me a boyfriend?" Of course he was joking, but there was an undercurrent of sadness, and, yes, it made me sad.

So I think Consolation was entirely right to point out the following:

Exactly. So when he came up with this brainstorm over the weekend, and came to me excitedly with it, and I immediately shot it down, and got all "upset semi-hysterical parent" about it, well, I have to admit I'm not surprised he got his back up and reacted like he did. It's not that unusual an initial reaction for a teenager who makes plans he thinks are amazing and spectacular and is immediately told no. Even an 18-year old. And it isn't like he hasn't threatened to disobey me before. But he never actually has, not with anything major.

I've discussed this with him since only once, and only briefly. He was already in "negotiation mode": well, instead of *every* night during the two weeks we're there, how about one to three times? I was very noncommittal, but it's a step in the right direction!

I'm not letting him go anywhere unless I've checked it out first myself on another night, to see what the place looks like, what the neighborhood looks like, and how safe the transportation is. And unless he agrees to follow each and every rule I set down, even if it means calling me every 15 minutes! And anything else I can think of.

Really, I'm less worried about his safety *inside* whatever place he may go to -- because I *do* trust him in that sense, and do trust him not to leave a bar with a stranger -- than about getting home safely, getting lost, getting his pocket picked or being mugged. That kind of thing.

But it wouldn't surprise me if, in the end, he's way too tired at night, by the time we've finished what we're doing during the day, and have had dinner, to want to do anything like this after all. No matter how ambitious he is now. On every vacation I've ever been on with him in the last half-dozen years -- London/Bath, Boston, Washington, San Francisco, etc. -- he's run me ragged, insisting on seeing every gallery in every museum, every church, every interesting neighborhood, every everything. By day's end, both of us are usually too exhausted to do anything but sleep! (I should post the day-by-day itinerary he's already typed up for the trip to Rome, based on the Blue Guide and the Access Rome guide -- it's about six single-spaced typed pages!)

So maybe this will all turn out to be academic. I kind of hope so. But if there is some way to do something like this safely, and he does do it once or twice over the course of two weeks, please don't think I'm going to feel abandoned or disrespected. True, I won't be able to sleep till he gets back, but being by myself for a few hours a couple of times wouldn't exactly be a tragedy.

For all I know, he'll realize how unbelievably boring it is to be in a club full of strangers, unable to speak the language, and come back early! (Although, after all, there are plenty of Italians who speak English, and my son also speaks Spanish close to fluently -- he visited Mexico City last summer, and was able to communicate with people very easily.)

Look at it this way. In a couple of months, I'm going to trust him to be on his own in the South Side of Chicago. Where do you think the crime rate is higher -- there, or the tourist areas of Rome?

So, yes, I'm worried. Yes, a lot more research needs to be done, and every possible precaution needs to be taken.

But I think some people here have been getting a little carried away with the condemnations, both of me and of my son.

Thanks again to the many of you who've been so helpful.

Donna

cptofthehouse

A bit off the subject, but I think a lot of kids I know these days seem to want to include their parents in their risky activities to a degree that I think is really inconsiderate. If you want to engage in risky behavior or do things you know will worry your parents whom you love, why on earth would you tell them your plans? I don't know anyone in my generation that would do that. THere are just things you do, and keep to yourself. When you share the info with your parents you are burdening them with the fears and knowledge. This is something I am hearing over and over with kids. My kids to some degree have pulled this stuff on us, and we have just closed the door on it. Why the heck would I drive my kid somewhere that has risky business happening?

calmom

cptofthehouse --- I don't think this is a case of a kid wanting to include his mom in risky activities. I think this is a kid going to Rome and, in romanticizing the trip in his mind, is thinking that he would like to be able to take in some of the night life. He also was testing the idea with his mom -- which is why I tried to come up with some ideas for activities that mom & son could do together.

Donna, the "Coming Out" cafe/bar that I mentioned in post 10 really looks like the kind of place where you could go with your son during the afternoon to check out, and you could decide from there whether it seemed like a safe place for your son to hang out for a couple of hours in the evening. I am also sending you a PM with some more comments.