lilybbloom

epiphany, i've noticed that when responding to others you tend to make the claim that we are somehow crazy because we are missing some essential component to what you are saying. maybe you should make it plainer.

for the record, i didn't call anyone names.

no, i'm not for "illegal immigration." i'm for legalizing immigration. maybe some of you don't realize this, but it is near IMPOSSIBLE for many people (i'm talking specifically about mexicans, because that is what i know the most about) to get worker visas. do you really think that if low-skilled laborers had a way to come here legally, they wouldn't? of course they would! that would allow them to come and go without fearing deportation or worse, to feel like they are a legitimate part of our society.

what really bothers me is when i hear so many people stereotype illegal immigrants as common criminals. yes, i am aware that living here illegally is a crime (though i'm pretty sure not a felony). but labeling it such constantly appears to have this effect on people where we're almost equating coming here illegally with being a thief or a rapist. of course i don't support breaking the law. we should secure our borders for security purposes. but we also need to *change* laws that don't make sense and that go against our common interests.

epiphany, what are these constructive proposals you are referring to? how do they deal with the undocumented people already in the u.s., and how do they accomodate the demand for workers here in the u.s.?

RatedPG

lilybbloom,

You might try reading stories of some "legal" immigrants and see what they had to face to become legal, to do it the right way. It is a slap in the face to them to have the illegals come out of the shadows and get blanket absolution.

And no, not every illegal is also a criminal. But their drain on our society is more than I care to pay the tab for. Why should I pay taxes to compensate for the illegals that aren't?

"I'm for legalizing immigration".... you do realize that there has to be some limits set, no?

Caleno

In my town there has been an exponential increase of illegals. As I sometimes translate for them, I am impressed that they work multiple jobs that most americans prefer not to have. Far from us "paying the tab" for them, they wind up representing the increase in the labor base that is critical to our "pay as you go" social security system...i.e. they are paying for our retirement even though they most likely won't be able to claim benefits themselves.

zoosermom

did you ask unemployed Americans if they'd like to have those jobs? Did you also ask the employers if they'd rather pay less than minimum wage and no benefits for illegals or if they'd like to follow the laws and hire legal workers and cut into their profits?

lilybbloom

ratedPG, i don't need a lecture on the requirements for getting a worker visa. but what you need to realize is that as much as this country is about ideals, we also have to be pragmatic. yeah, it sucks that immigrants who are an ocean away from us have such a hard time getting visas. but the fact is, we have 12 million undocumented people living in this country. we can't send them back to their countries, it just isn't feasible. so what is the point of preventing them from becoming regularized? what the heck is the point? i just don't get it. if it's a slap in the face to future immigrants from other countries, so be it. we need to start focusing on pratical solutions to our problems.

you're ****ed about them not paying taxes (which isn't true, but i'll concede the point in order to stress my argument)? fine, then let them come out of the shadows, give them a social security number and they can pay taxes like everyone else! why is that so hard?

i understand that people feel threatened by this new wave of immigration. i think it's mostly a natural feeling, because there is an "american way of life" and when we see people coming in willy nilly it can be a shock to our law-abiding systems. i understand that, and i support spending more money on securing our borders and putting pressure on the mexican government to stem the flow. what i'm concerned about is this intense antipathy toward the undocumented workers already here, people who have families (often children who are american citizens) and roots here, people who hold jobs and go to church and are trying to live the american dream, just like my great-grandfather who came over by way of ellis island.

i'm just really afraid of this nativist sentiment that i see pretty much everywhere i look. CC was the last place i expected to find it, but there you go

ucsd_ucla_dad

The 'free social security' pay-in seems to keep popping up as if it's a justification to have illegals here and to keep them here. Using that logic we should just go ahead and remove any border controls we have in place so we could allow millions and millions more to come here illegally to boost the coffers even more. These same posters don't seem to consider the strain on social systems such as schools (not paying appropriate property taxes when living many families in a dwelling planned for one), sewer systems (again - multiple families per SF dwelling), hospitals who treat many who'll never pay, and many other social services.

I don't buy it - I'd rather have legal workers who will pay and receive their appropriate share. If that means an increase in the SS tax for the legal workers then so be it.

BCEagle91

The US has enjoyed relatively low unemployment rates by financial engineering and that financial engineering is in the process of unraveling. We are seeing higher unemployment as a result. Americans may change their minds as to what they will and won't do.

I think that I computed an annual SS contribution of about $1,500 per year. But one child in a public school system costs $10,000.

zoosermom

Attrition has started to be very successful.

What I don't get is why you don't understand that many of the people who immigrated illegally do not want to be here. That families, communities and cultures are being destroyed. What you advocate is the easy way out, the selfish way out. Human beings on both side of the border deserve better than that.

Caleno

to ucsd..dad: not a social security justification..just an inconvenient truth for those who get overly self righteous about how" they" are taking from "us". By all means, make them legal. "They" don't plan on stiffing us and would much prefer to pay tax in order to avoid the extreme dislocations of illegal immigration in exchange for having work. Most of those I translate for are trying desperately to become legal, knowing they will incur tax and other obligations. The responsibility for the economic dislocations is our xenophobia, not their avariciousness.

Caleno

BC eagle: but have you calculated what happens in 10-15 years when the rate of new employees enters the system decreases (absent "illegal" immigrant) but the population retiring surges?

zoosermom

Most of those whom I tutor couldn't care less about their status. They get exactly what they need and don't have the responsibilities. Granted, my tutorees are either women with small kids or men without families of their own here, but your experience isn't representative of the whole picture.

Caleno

zoosermom: actually, as I do counseling, I have a number of unemployed american clients who DO say they don't want the jobs that the illegals do..indeed, they tend to say some nasty things about the values of the illegals in reference to their willingness to take such jobs. Xenophobia at some of its ugliest

BCEagle91

The problems are orthogonal. With illegal immigrant families, the costs outweigh the benefits. They may benefit the social security system but it's just pushing the costs elsewhere.

zoosermom

Your experience is not universal. I live in middle class NYC and I can tell you that the young black men in my neighborhood and in my church would do those jobs when given a chance. They aren't often given that chance. Illegal immigrants absolutely victimize those at the bottom of the employment ladder. It makes me sad that so many Americans consider themselves good and moral people when supporting the victimization here in America and there in places like Mexico and Guatemala. I often wonder if these people don't think at all. I'd also like to know how many of those righteous (self righteous?) Americans have illegal landscapers, childcare providers or cleaning people.

simba

"I have a number of unemployed american clients who DO say they don't want the jobs that the illegals do"

That is one of the problem. The NO is being rebuilt not by natives but by Hispanics. And they are plenty of Jobs in LA even McDonald is offering signing bonuses. In Houston, you will be hard pressed to find any other race crew (except Hispanics) for Landscaping, residential home construction, roofing or any other work that are low pay and back breaking.