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Old 07-11-2008, 05:49 PM   #46
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PG, you stated the pandering idea three times on one page.. that's more than just reiterating -- that's beating a dead horse!

And galoisien, I think you put too much faith in the future usage of Esperanto around the world
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:54 PM   #47
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Esperanto is due for a second explosion I think, especially due to the internet that will connect other idealists like me.

Esperanto saw an explosion between the two world wars, but with Soviet and Nazi crackdown, as well as CPC crackdown on it in China (another place that saw Esperanto flourish) its growth was stunted.

I do have a hope that as far as linguistic awareness goes, things will be better with my generation.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:00 PM   #48
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Katliamom... seems you are a bit touchy about the comment, but then again you are interpreting BO's comment as some sort of visionary observation. I accept that as I have seen many times how Obama supporters seem to rationalize similar statements by him.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:01 PM   #49
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galoisien, let's hope more than just linguistic awareness will be better with your generation You guys have your work cut out for you: my generation has handed you quite the mess to deal with...
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:20 PM   #50
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I think it is one thing to have signage and notifications mainly for tourism reasons and having to have 24 hour translators available in hospitals. It is also upsetting to have your patients angry with you because you don't speak Spanish and they have been in the country for years.
And I speak my very poor 3 years of high school Spanish which usually enables me to at least figure out why the patient is here and get basic information. Some of my co-workers don't even have that. I have also had co-workers take Spanish classes on their own dime and time but haven't really seen any of them become fluent enough to not have to use translation services.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:26 PM   #51
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Quote:
Esperanto. It is the dream of the 19th century, but it will be the reality of the 21st century internationalist.
That's completely out of touch with reality.

Ranto (JBR AntiZamenhofism)

The Language Construction Kit: Since you asked...

Esperanto - a critique

is Esperanto's vocabulary bloated?

Why Esperanto Suppresses Language Diversity
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:31 PM   #52
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As a student of linguistics (albeit a mostly self-taught one, until I get to college), I must say that this strongly smells of pseudoscience.
G: While I respect what linguistics training you may have availed yourself of -- I have almost no formal training -- I have enough experience as both a language learner and teacher of all ages to last a lifetime. I would say the following article accords with what I see in the world and while it isn't exactly the same idea as I mentioned, it is quite close. Peeudoscience? I am not so sure. Remember, it is common knowledge that in late childhood a lot or neuronal pruning goes on in a human's brain.

Accents Are Forever

This article is from the Smithsonian Magazine by the way.

ADDITION: As I have gone back to read my original post, I didn't put in a critical piece of what my understanding was -- i.e. that this phenomenon of people "locked" into a perception and basic ability to speak different sounds has its root not in the physical voice box per se, but in the brain (which I consider part of the voice box apparatus broadly speaking). As I wrote it, I can see you suggesting it would be pseudoscience, but again, remember that the brain of a maturing child/adolescent culls out nearly half of the neurons it was born with, if not more. The presumption is that the "excess" neurons are needed for the learning-heavy first years. And with that pruning seemingly go abilities to form new sounds naturally, at least in some people, in my experience. It does vary though -- I guess some people have more neural plasticity than others. I have a friend who when he speaks Mandarin sounds like a native in all respects. Even Chinese can't tell him apart, if they don't see he is a "whitey."

Last edited by BedHead; 07-11-2008 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:23 PM   #53
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keymom, glad to see you are still trying to keep this thread on track.... I appreciate reading the linguistics related comments, however, the issue here has been summed up in your post.

I don't understand how anyone cannot see that this language barrier issue is a drain on our economy. We are so willing to welcome the illegals without placing any offsetting demands on them. We can't refuse to treat them in the ER, citizens are being forced to take "language" classes on their own dime in order to communicate with these illegals.... there is an expense associated with this and it is just the tip of the iceburg.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:06 PM   #54
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Tokenadult: I really found a lot of the criticisms in the articles tangential. Esperanto is not meant to save endangered languages (that's a separate endeavour), and I dont' see what's so evil about having synonyms -- that seems a very natural part of the natural language process. In so far as having an international auxiliary language, the main obstacle to its goals naturally is increasing the number of speakers.

Quote:
Remember, it is common knowledge that in late childhood a lot or neuronal pruning goes on in a human's brain.
Mmm, but is the language acquisition device (as Chomsky has called it) in those neurons?

The most perplexing part of the human brain is that it's so difficult to pin down consciousness, language processing (though we do have Broca's and Wernicke's areas, those seem like "add-ons" to our main language faculties) and even where long-term memories are stored (after they get "moved out" of the hippocampus). There isn't one specialised area for procedural memory, which might make sense because if the areas that store procedural memory seem to be scattered throughout the brain, they may be quickly activated for each "body part" the procedural memory is intended for. What sort of neurological processes would be involved in language acquisition, especially as fluency is concerned? Would it be mostly procedural learning, or memory linked to consciousness and personality? There is good evidence of the former (amnesiacs still remember how to speak) but at the same time language is strongly tied to cognition.

Furthermore, many aspects of learning may not be involved in just the neurons, but the glial cells that were previously thought to be just involved in support. Anyhow, the brain does pruning all the time. Sometimes in fact it may be used for efficiency -- if brain matter there is storing nothing, then it is removed or moved around. The neurons that die (or get signals to kill themselves by apoptosis, or create eat-me signals) often are the ones that are unused. It's sort of a form of natural selection. Adults have neural stem cells too, and at least 50% of neural stem cells die before they ever make it to their intended spot, and if they are not quickly linked to the existing "framework" that is another chance for them to die.

I just really have a hard time seeing that the pruning mechanism necessarily equates to pruning of learning ability. Furthermore, if I actively try to "learn like a child," I find that my learning attempts become far more successful. Taken together with the fact that it's so hard to set down even a rough approximation of the critical window period, I'm not really sure if losing neurons has much to do with it. It sounds alarming ("we're losing brain matter?!"), but you can also remove entire portions of the brain with little damage.

Take for example a girl who was prone to violent epileptic fits (I am unable to recall her name so you can look her up on Google Scholar -- maybe you've known her case too) -- it was found that an entire hemisphere of her brain was faulty (I forgot what the exact disorder was), but anyway, the remarkable thing was they could remove that problematic hemisphere, have her recover from surgery and her personality did not change at all! Her intelligence (bright, inquisitive and bubbly when she wasn't in a fit) was not affected! This seems to tell me that having more brain matter is useless, even a liability, if it remains unorganised or diseased. I suspect the pruning is not unlike removing an entire diseased hemisphere of a brain, where learning ability may not even be impacted significantly.

The paper you cited details a phenomenon that is well-known -- babies originally babble in all sounds of the human language, then they start babbling only in the sounds of their parents. But taken together with other studies in language acquisition, I think one has to be careful before concluding that this means that babies are "locking in" sounds. One thing is true, and it's that children are incredibly perceptive to language -- babies can perceive sounds that they do not know yet how to produce (the Fis phenomenon). As you get older, you become less perceptive. But is it because you lose neurons, or is it because something else happens -- a change in your sensory filters, perhaps? For one, we do not became immediately enchanted when a new toy dangles in our faces, and what I suspect is that the older we get, the more likely we shut some stimuli out. But this doesn't make things impossible -- you just have to consciously become meticulous and attentive when learning a language.

Anyway BedHead, both of us share similar recommendations I think -- that you should teach children foreign languages at a young age. I'm just disputing critical window theory because it's my hypothesis (given the linguistic data I've come across) that all adults can learn foreign languages to native fluency; they only don't because of various interfering factors. The "language acquisition device" can be reactivated. We should also remember that the brain as a whole imposes a very taxing energy drain on the body -- not a big deal in the modern age, but it would have been a big deal before agriculture. The reason why the device would be "turned off" I think, is not so much as due to neuron-pruning, but to manage mental resources. Remember, at a young age children have less things to think about, so using their brains to acquire language would be a good use of mental resources. But subconsciously and automatically analysing every word might consume more attention that it might be worth .... at least in the days before globalisation.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:09 PM   #55
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At any given level of language proficiency, English increases its number of speakers annually by a number greater than all the Esperanto speakers who have ever lived.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:11 PM   #56
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citizens are being forced to take "language" classes on their own dime in order to communicate with these illegals....
I hadn't been aware this was the primary reason people took Spanish language classes, or that employers forced individuals to learn Spanish on your own dime.

As far as business goes it's a matter of opportunity cost really. You could also have the immigrants not be there and you'd have no revenue from them at all. Or you could invest a bit in translation and make a profit.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:22 PM   #57
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"You could also have the immigrants not be there and you'd have no revenue from them at all."

Revenue? Lets talk about the level of revenue that is generated from illegals.............

Next topic.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:24 PM   #58
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Illegals necessarily?

Banks and other businesses wouldn't be asking you to "press 2 for Spanish" if it wasn't profitable. And usually profitability means that economic utility is being generated.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:59 PM   #59
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Illegal's

I think this whole problem could be easily solved if we all, including spanish people, learned together and helped each other communicate. Perhaps we could make a deal with these people and tell them to meet us like 90% of the way. I dont think it is unnecessary for myself being a white person to have to learn how to speak certain words/phrases in spanish. I'll learn a small amount like how to say hello, goodbye, and how to ask them to mow my lawn. Thank you and goodnight.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:26 PM   #60
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I really want to communicate with my patients as do my co-workers which is their motivation for taking Spanish classes. However, I would estimate more than half of our SSO patients are illegals. Therefore, not only are we spending money (both the hospital and the workers) to communicate, they are not paying for their health care. Many come just to have their babies here.
I see the need to communicate, but I hate the attitude that there is something wrong with me because I can't communicate fluently
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