Sarkozy speaks out against the burka - Page 2

eireann · 06-22-2009, 02:13 PM

Do you know them? My best friend is a Muslim who doesn't wear hijab, burka, or any kind of veil. She does take her religion seriously and doesn't touch pork or alcohol, has researched Islam, and it is a very personal decision. Her mother is a college professor who teaches gender studies. Yes, there is some oppression of women in Islam, and yes, some women (in Iran for example) are not free to make the choice, but many women have complete freedom and do choose to cover their hair. I don't know why we would assume that it's a sign of repression any more than we would assume that women in a religion that does not permit them to wear shorts or short sleeves (many Mormons that a friend of mine knows, as one example) are oppressed.

LakeWashington · 06-22-2009, 02:31 PM

There is a discrimination lawsuit going on right now in either New Jersey or Michigan (I can't remember which) wherein a woman is fighting her firing from her job as a corrections officer. The prison wouldn't give her a waiver to allow her to wear an Islamic veil covering much of her face, as I recall. There was also the case not long ago wherein a state declined to issue a driver's license to a woman who refused to remove her burka-like veil for her driver's I.D. photograph. In both of these and in similar cases, I believe "the state" does have some justification for such limitations.

AnudduhMom · 06-22-2009, 02:48 PM

Not sure why Sarko wants to fight these culture wars, but he seems to have limitless energy for it.

I think that if suddenly you started to see large numbers of women walking around malls, cities and other public areas in the U.S. completely covered from head to toe you would see why this could be considered kind of disturbing. Even those who say "if they want to wear it, it's nobody else's business" might reassess.

Hijab/niqab is one thing, but burka is an entirely different matter. It seems to send the message "I have no desire to get to know you, nor do I care that you can't recognize or communicate with me". It seems a little antisocial. Quite apart from any religious sensitivities it calls into question what it means to be a member of the community or culture.

Burqa is not particularly Islamic and not mentioned in the Quran, by the way. It is one of those Sharia law impositions that are invented by some people for their own purposes. Kinda like clothing restrictions in the Orthodox Jewish, Amish, Mormon, or any other faith, but with the added dimension of removing the entire person from sight.

eireann · 06-22-2009, 03:02 PM

AnudduhMom, you do make a good point. I will admit I was kind of confusing the veil an burka issue (thinking he and people on this thread were fighting both) but they are, in fact, completely different Although it is still religious freedom, I think. (But I don't know much about religious freedom in France, or what the norms are).

hawkette · 06-22-2009, 03:27 PM

eire,
I would agree that in a free society like the USA, women should have all of the room they desire to make this choice and particularly so with the hijab. My fear, however, is that in less free societies, Muslim women don't have the same freedoms and nowhere near the same degree of autonomy that they have here. I think that this is very much the case in many of the Middle Eastern countries. Even in France, which is heavily segregated with Muslims living mostly to themselves, I would question how much true freedom these Muslim women have in their decision to wear the burka.

razorsharp · 06-22-2009, 03:46 PM

A burka is a sign of slavery. It is another example of men trying to control women's sexuality. The French President is a good man for trying to prevent the spread of slavery.

hellojan · 06-22-2009, 03:48 PM

The West likes to hand-pick things that are exotic and criticize them separately or out of context with the larger culture. I had an Iranian anthropology professor. She's lived in the States since the mid-90s, has an American husband, and a decidedly Western lifestyle. We had an exchange about the context of the situation.

Me: Do you think hijab constrains a woman's identity?

Professor: Yes, but so does not being allowed to take your top off at an American beach. Why shouldn't a woman be allowed to bare her breasts?

Me: But we're talking about Iran.

Professor: Are we? Or, when Westerners discuss wearing hijab, are we discussing one exotic facet of a much larger problem? "Off with Hijab?" How about, "down with the execution of minors?"

Piterbizon · 06-22-2009, 03:55 PM

When in Rome...

Wearing a burqa in France is as inappropriate as wearing a bikini in Mecca. Good on Sarko. Maybe it'll make some of the less desirable potential newcomers go to Britain or Sweden instead...

Pizzagirl · 06-22-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

I think that if suddenly you started to see large numbers of women walking around malls, cities and other public areas in the U.S. completely covered from head to toe you would see why this could be considered kind of disturbing. Even those who say "if they want to wear it, it's nobody else's business" might reassess.

I wouldn't call it common, but I've certainly seen it. Why would I blink an eye? How is it any different from how Orthodox Jewish women wear extremely modest dress and the men wear very specific dress and hats and hairstyles?

Quote:

Hijab/niqab is one thing, but burka is an entirely different matter. It seems to send the message "I have no desire to get to know you, nor do I care that you can't recognize or communicate with me". It seems a little antisocial. Quite apart from any religious sensitivities it calls into question what it means to be a member of the community or culture.

Orthodox Jews have the same separatism -- they WANT to signal "I'm not one of you." Same with the Yearning For Zion folks. That's fine -- it is a free country. I think Sarkosy's wrong.

Pizzagirl · 06-22-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Do you think that these women are willingly wearing their burkas or hijabs? Some may, some may not, but would any of you feel differently if these women were being coerced via the religion to adopt certain habits?

Evangelical, fundamentalist Christian teenagers are equally "coerced" to wear purity rings. Don't see the difference.

DonnaL · 06-22-2009, 04:10 PM

Should France ban the wearing of sheitls in public, because they don't allow you to see the hair of the woman who's wearing them?

Should it ban the wearing of all masks in public, even if you're on your way to a masquerade?

How about banning the wearing and display of crucifixes in public, by children below "the age of reason"?

barrons · 06-22-2009, 04:16 PM

Only if the crucifix is life size.

tega · 06-22-2009, 04:23 PM

Why aren't men also wearing the Burka? Maybe France should also force muslim men to try it to see whether they like it before they protest.

missypie · 06-22-2009, 04:31 PM

There are probably young women in hijab in most of our US public schools. Has anyone seen public high school or middle school girls in a full burka, with either her face not showing at all, or only her eyes showing? I haven't. Most of the muslim girls in our school don't even wear hijab. Some wear a scarf and long pants/long sleeves. But I haven't seen a school girl (or teacher) in a full burka.

Some of the inner city schools around here prohibit kids from wearing hoodies, for security reasons (hoods can obscure identity.) I wonder if any US school districts have had to make rules about full burkas.

Piterbizon · 06-22-2009, 04:35 PM

"Should France ban the wearing of sheitls in public, because they don't allow you to see the hair of the woman who's wearing them?

Should it ban the wearing of all masks in public, even if you're on your way to a masquerade?

How about banning the wearing and display of crucifixes in public, by children below "the age of reason"?"

The burqa is fairly unique in its level of public obnoxiousness. But I'm pretty sure the things you mentioned are all banned from public schools by the 2005 law (Sikh turbans and Kippahs certainly are)...