Kenshinsan

Again with the horrible examples. Wearing the burqa is not harming or killing anyone. To me its an eyesore but if banning whatever we don't want to see has become the norm in the West, let me be the first to propose some new laws. Lets start with all the North Face, Spandex, Uggs boot wearing women that seem to traverse my campus in droves every winter.

If its part of their culture to wear the burqua let them wear it, as long as it isn't harming anyone else except themselves. Since when did banning bad decisions become the norm?

And Hunt you are absolutely right.

xiggi

This was one of the main issues debated in an older CC thread about the ban of the hijab in France. There is little to no historical support for the position of the fundamentalists who use religion to push discriminatory political and social agendas.

Although the President of France is rarely worthy of applause for his positions, this one is different. Banning the hijab in schools in France was correct, and so is this latest declaration of Sarkozy.

ellebud

Sarfraz:

I do find it interesting that you capitolize Muslim and not Jew or Jewish.

But to further the discussion of religious freedom in France. There is a ban of all overt religious garments in public schools, including yamulkes. If one is Jewish and must wear a yamulke one goes to a private Jewish day school. (I have a friend who's family lives in France and are religious Jews.) The opinion is ut your Euro where your faith is and don't expect their government to be pc.

Lergnom

Crosses are also banned in French schools.

BTW, the Orthodox Jewish population is barely affected because they rarely attend public school. The most devout Muslims also don't go to public school. And of course there are Christian schools as well.

AnudduhMom

It was funny, the juxtaposition of ellebud in #72:
followed by sarfraz in #73:
The first one is scared by a woman in a burqa, and the second one is scared by women not in burqas (nude images & video)!

Well, I think this represents the Janus face of misunderstanding between cultures, don't you think? Some want those women out of burqas because they are scaring the children, and others want the women covered because they "r shameless,mentally,illiterate". There's no room for discussion in either of these positions.

And then there are folks who think that women in burqas are oppressed, and maybe they are. And some Sharia adherents believe that Western women are hookers and men manquees with the way they dress, work and manage their own lives.

Sorry, ellebud, your comment made me After years in the Middle East and in parts of Europe where women and men wear all manner of "Muslim" garb (in quotes, because it is not really doctrinal), I can tell you that the motivations are decidedly mixed.
Women wear hijab, niqab, or burqa for any of the following reasons:

They are making a religious statement
They are making a personal statement about their culture (sometimes tribal or family)
They are forced, or pressured into it by husband or husband's family
They are having a bad hair day
They just had plastic surgery (really)
The husband just took a younger wife and their vanity took a hit
They are the younger wife, and the older wife (or wives) pressured them to wear niqab
They want to disguise their identity
They are concealing a pregnancy
They are just plain self-conscious, particularly around men
They had a bad experience with being groped, molested, sexually harassed or raped
They don't want to talk to you

I suppose anything unfamiliar can be scary. But my issue with the burqa is that it shuts down communication. That was discouraging when we lived in the Middle East. Even my friendly next-door neighbor -- his wives (yes, plural) were completely covered with black abayas or burqas (with black gloves and socks, etc.) never spoke to me even when I greeted them directly in Arabic. I couldn't even see where their faces were.

(sarfraz, I think before calling anyone else "mentally,illiterate" I'd check my own syntax)

ellebud

I don't know if you remember the protesting, several years back, led by a group headed by Mavis Leno to free the women of Afghanistan? I know that you had some cute, flip remarks about why women wear a burka but to send women back in time to a place where they cannot talk to others, of honor killings (no I am not comparing the wearing of the burka to honor killings just the fundamentalist concept behind it), it is no longer perception of hookers versus the pious. It is rather ignorance of the outside world. We see the burka and what it can/does represent, we can discuss it, we can decide whether or not it is appropriate for us to wear. We have seen headscarves here for years, no problem. (In fact, in the strange twist of religious fates Orthodox Jewish women cover their heads as well.) Most of the women in the burka can't choose anything, be it education, driving a car, or taking a solo walk down the street. For us to forget Afghanistan and the Taliband (who mandated the burka) makes us, if history serves as a lesson, for us to repeat it.

toblin

Concealing ones identity in public spaces is counter to good order and in most places illegal. But then again, tell that to SWAT teams. It's the usual case of government officials taking the attitude of " Do as we say! Not as we do!"

AnudduhMom

Was your comment in response to mine, ellebud? I am unsure. Because I assure you that my remarks were not intended to be "cute" or "flip". What I was explaining is the reality on the ground.

I'm glad you mentioned Mavis Leno's organization:
Jay Leno and Mavis Leno turn serious about the plight of Afghan women - Los Angeles Times
I raised money and awareness for the FMF when they first started it, and I can tell you that it is still very much active.(I stepped away from it a while back to do other things.)

I will also say that the phenomenon of the burqa is not as simple and clear-cut as you would like to believe. In any area under Taliban control (not just Afghanistan), the plight of women is desperate and bleak. But we are talking about France and other European countries in which the Muslim population is sizable (like the U.K., Germany, The Netherlands, etc.). Women in burqas, hijab and niqab (the face mask) are present in ever-increasing numbers. The issue is whether or not it is necessary as a culture to form an opinion and follow it up with public policy.

What fascinates people, or maybe I should just speak for myself, is the challenge religious attire presents to our secular sense of civic participation. How extreme is too extreme? Put another way -- what would we cross the street to avoid? And when should we make rules and laws prohibiting some forms of religious expression?

Many people would cross the street to avoid --- the Hare Krishnas, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Mormon missionaries, street people dressed like Jesus shouting at us to repent...should people in burqas be added to the list (because they are "scary")? I'm just asking.

ellebud

Just as an intellectual exercise to see where our experience/preconceived notions fall let me give you this scenario. One of my kids was asked to write a paper on this question after talking to/polling at least ten people.

An African American woman now living in Chicago has a 14 year old son. The mother immigrated from Africa, legally, and had become an American citizen. She is arrested for child abuse. She cut lines on her son's face with a knife. She had tended the wounds. In court she explained that if she and her son went to Africa to see her family and his face was not cut in the ritual manner he would not be considered a man. So she did it herself.

She was convicted of child abuse. Agree or disagree?

Bay

Agree.

(10char)

ellebud

To be upfront...I definitely agree with the court.

blankmind

Absolutely agree. The kid lives in America not Africa. If he wants to cut his face after he's 18, then he can go ahead & do it.

Kenshinsan

I agree. (though these culture questions are always slippery ones)

One thing I wonder is who considers spanking abuse? Spanking is something that is common in Black-American culture though many White-Americans I have talked to consider it a form of abuse.

I for one believe in the right to spank a child, do others?

Bay

How about piercing an infant girl's ears? I consider that child abuse as well.

blankmind

I think calling every single thing we disagree on "abuse" is abusing the word abuse .

I don't think spanking or ear piercing are abuse, but that doesn't mean I think either is a good idea. Ear piercing is unnecessary pain for a baby (my opinion). Spanking? My internal jury is still out on this one.