TheDad

Are there not poorhouses?

MiamiDAP

owlice,
Why not ask others to pay for Piano / art / dance lessons then? Why not ask others to pay for Prom dresses than? If you see the advantage of one paying for other kid sport, I see huge advantage of one paying for other kid piano / art / dance lessons and Prom dress. Actually sports have resulted in huge number of injuries (including my own D, who is in a safest sport of them all) and even deaths. I have never heard of somebody dying of piano or art lessons.

younghoss

And people who may not drive chip in for road improvements.

May I suggest this post is taking a turn far from what I think the Op's intent was? I am just guessing but I believe the intent was the politics of dropping sports and such, the possible loss to the students and the comunity, and the validity of levies given spending of admin.

School sports vs. book education is a lively topic, but might be better suited to a new thread. "Where my taxes go" is another very interesting topic, but I believe is better suited in a new thread.

wis75

Some good posts got me to post my rant. And I love some of the short pointed comments, but once I get up on my soapbox a lot spills out.

Anyone who chooses to opt out of their public school system because they don't feel it meets their needs should get involved and improve that system so that it does (religious needs are met outside of the classroom- proven by the many who can't afford their parochial schools). We had a parents' committee with the school district that helped improve gifted education (parents of the gifted don't take no for an answer). Perhaps Florida would have better schools if the rich were more engaged in them instead of fleeing from their responsibility. Just think of all of the resources diverted from the public schools- financial, passion and time to name a few- that could make a bigger difference in the community. I consider the society I and my child live in to be important- the better off the general population is the better off the world he lives in is. Keeping the children busy who otherwise would cause problems for the rest of us is good. Not all/most children will study harder if they don't have other activities taking up their time and energy.

Economics drives everything. How we choose to spend our limited resources matters. I would much rather be able to walk the streets safely than need a gated community to keep out the "riffraff" with too much time on their hands. Of course, we will never have utopia but when opportunities are more equal we all benefit.

That basic music, art and physical education are all part of the good public school education. Going beyond the basics are a perk, the benefits of having more money. In our town they have a prom dress donation event for girls unable to afford dresses- and you must separate wants from needs regarding how much you spend for that dress. Having EC's in the schools offers opportunities for noncompulsory enrichment that enriches our society. The rich benefit when the whole community has a higher standard of living.

The above may seem nasty- tough luck. I benefited greatly from a good public education and all of the frills available to those of us whose parents lacked funds. Now my taxes are paying back to another generation, much more in equivalent dollars than my education cost or that of my son's costs. I am happy to be able to have the money to pay the higher taxes. I'm an intellectual eletist but an egalatarian in many other things.

It may be now that our society as a whole has been spending beyond its means and we need to rework things. This includes decreasing the discrepency between top management and workers' wages that has developed.

MiamiDAP

"That basic music, art and physical education are all part of the good public school education. Going beyond the basics are a perk" - Exactly! And it benefits few at the expense of all. However, I am not even proponent of public education at all, although it will never change. However, if you look at results: the absolutely most expensive public system in a world with one of the most dismal / poorest results that even some underdeveloped countries in Africa bit. Wow, we can pat ourselves on a back!

atomom

I wonder how much the actual cost per participant would be for "pay to play?"
My nephew is in a "rival" HS band (GC is--was--awesome, btw). Each member has to pay $800/year (cash or fundraising), and that is after school support.

Our public district has school fees. I never heard of such a thing until I moved here last year.
It is about $100/yr for elementary, $150 for middle and $200/yr for each high school student. This doesn't cover field trips or supplies (extra fees for lab, art, cooking classes, too). And you have to pay for sports or band on top of that. They still have constant fundraisers and always ask parents to donate classroom supplies. This is a relatively high tax area where property values have not fallen.

Another perspective--my D had a British teacher (who taught French and had lived in France) who always compared European schools to American schools. The teacher thought all the sports/cheerleading/pep rally junk was just nonsense and didn't belong in school, which, in her opinion, should be about academics only. So, are Europeans not "well-rounded?" Or are they just having less fun on Friday nights than Americans?
Sports, bands, Friday night lights are part of American high school culture. But are they REALLY necessary?

FallGirl

Well said, Wis75.

hops_scout

Gee, maybe we could start with the fact that our school system has to raise some of the worst kids because their parents won't do it. Or because schools have to deal with students who just don't care and will do anything to get the worst scores possible because they think it's "cool" to be a complete idiot. Public education gets a bad rap because it has to deal with kids that private schools do not and in our society the kids and parents are always right so the teachers and administrators are stuck.

I believe sports, music, fine arts, etc are all essential parts of the education system. There are so many things taught in these activities that can't be taught in the classroom.

Ray192

I never did sports, music, or fine arts.

Am I stupid?

:'(


Really, schools should limit its efforts to the classroom. It shouldn't try to tackle everything else. Doing too much is how costs skyrocket. If you think your kids need music, fine arts or sports, there's no reason to rely solely on the public school system.

MiamiDAP

"Sports, bands, Friday night lights are part of American high school culture. But are they REALLY necessary? " - it should be to people's choice. If someone decided that they are part and if they have enough people who are interested, they should pay and organize everything. My D's HS did not have her sport's team. She asked Phys. Ed. director to register a swim team, so she could represent her school. She practiced with the club that was not connected with school anyhow. And she represented her HS as one person team although relay was not possible. Next year she had 2 teammates. Everything is possible if you decided to have it. You do not have to make other people pay for it. Just like you do not ask for a prom dress to be paid by somebody else.

goru

There is no doubt that there is great benefit to keeping kids occupied, and out of trouble, at the end of the school day.

But, its all a matter of perspective and value. In my opinion, this topic is indicative of the insane value many of us (parents!) put on the vicarious thrill we get watching our kids succeed in sports/band. It starts with 4-year old soccer, little league, pop warner, etc. and carries through middle school and high school.

I played sports all through my school years and in college. I wouldn’t trade those experiences for anything. They are a big part of who I am today. But, after guiding 2 children through school and club sports for the past 10 years, it’s safe to say things are out of control.

Just look at the facilities at your school. Back in the early 1980s, not a single division 1 college program in our area had a baseball field as nice as our local high school has today. And many schools have fields that are equal to or better than ours. Many high school football fields now have artificial turf and amazing track surfaces that are a far cry from the cinders of our youth. New team uniforms and equipment are purchased far more frequently. Band programs have multiple leaders (music director, choreographer, drill team, etc.).

I gotta believe there’s a middle ground resolution where we still have after school sports and ECs that are less costly. Of course, that also means we parents need to let go a bit, and put our kids athletic endeavors in the proper perspective.

osdad

I wouldn’t have a problem if public schools dropped sports altogether. Also dropped would be marching band, cheer, and everything else that we see at games. Let kids who want to participate in competitive athletics do so at clubs (the European model). Drop drama and yearbook. Drop dances too. Drop all support of special interest clubs. Drop any community service requirement too.

Would that change HS culture? Absolutely!

We could put that money into community based athletic and cultural centers so that there’s be somewhere to go to participate. Oh wait, that wouldn’t save any money! I know, make them truly European clubs; basically bars where the old men sit around drinking watching the young men represent them on the pitch.

Face it. This is the society we have allowed to develop. Is it optimum? No. If we could start over would we end up in the same place? I hope not. But this is what we have. Making it better is the only way to make it better. Starting from scratch is not an option.

If the BoE in that Ohio district wanted to make a point, they did. But they need to be careful what they wish for as they just might get it.

berryberry61

"I do not see why the rest of community with a lot of older people on limited income and a lot of us who are paying for college education have to pay for some kids' interest in sports."

Here Here MiamiDAP !!! Some public school districts have gotten way out of control living off the taxpayers. In the area where I live, there has been an arms race as schools build new stadiums to try and outdo one another. Its about time taxpayers put their foot down. I am glad the citizens in this district took a stand - after all, it is these citizens the school administration work for, no one else. I see nothing wrong with charging parents who's child wants to play sports a fee to do so.

Youdon'tsay

"I do not see why the rest of community with a lot of older people on limited income and a lot of us who are paying for college education have to pay for some kids' interest in sports."

Because others paid for you and yours.

DadofB&G

Is there really the belief that local elected school board members are evilly lining the pockets of their administrators? There are undoubtedly inefficiencies and poor contract negotiators in many districts, but by and large these board members actually are trying to serve the community. It's generally a thankless job.

I really don't think the cost of extra-curriculars is a large percentage of a school's budget. Yes, football and marching bands are extravagant, but many sports can be played on a modest budget.

They are cut in a tight budget mostly because the schools are required to provide other services.

What's really expensive in a school? Special education, pre-kindergarden, pre-school services for the disabled, social services workers (for child protective services), state and federal mandates for curriculum changes and "teaching to the tests",
health benefits and defined benefit retirements for employees, physical plants which are designed for safety and discipline, constant technology investments, etc.,etc.

And yes, these costs were absent, for the most part, 30-40 years ago. And they require more and more bureaucracy.

I won't comment on the need or worthiness of these programs, but I know that in NY, a good portion of the cost of running a school has little to do with educating average kids from stable families - and those costs are not optional for the district. That's the world we live in.