Youdon'tsay

China, you do sound a little oversensitive. My post wasn't meant as a commentary on you or your family. I just thought it was interesting this question was being asked hours after getting off the phone with someone who posed the exact same question to me because she's seeing negative consequences of giving underage kids alcohol. That's all.

Hunt

I think maybe this is an issue on which we have one extreme, a moderate view, and an unrepresented other extreme. I think some people feel (like my mother, for example), that drinking is intrinsically bad because of its danger, based on their own life experiences. There are gradations of a moderate view, in which it's a social activity, not bad in itself, and maybe it would be a good idea for kids to learn to drink in moderation in a controlled environment. Both of those views are typically represented in discussions here (with shades of both). But we don't often get posts from people who think it's OK for teens to drink as much as they want, who host the teen drinking party, etc. Those folks are out there--they're just not here.

midmo

China, this is your original post.

A number of parents have weighed in with the opinion that they don't think it is a good idea. Some don't like the illegality, some give credence to research that points out that brains are still developing into late teen years (not just younger than 15, by the way), some don't like encouraging the idea that alcohol is a necessary component of a pleasant social event, etc.

None of those arguments are claiming that the position of parents who disagree is immoral or constitutes bad parenting. Personally, I think the position that introducing alcohol during teen years in a 'controlled' situation decreases the likelihood of alcohol abuse as adults is flawed, not backed up by any research, and is in direct contradiction to my observations throughout my life.

That is not a moral judgement. If you don't want to know what others think of your approach, why did you ask us to comment?

midmo

Says whom? I paid some attention to this line of argument when my daughter went to London last year. I read that quite a few European countries are reassessing their alcohol laws in light of increasing rates of alcoholism.

I don't think it is any secret that Scandinavian countries have serious problems with alcohol abuse. Ditto Russia.

Direct comparisons of college life with other countries is very difficult, because most other countries, including western European ones, do not have nearly as high a rate of living on-campus. Students live at home and go to college nearby.

Notnim

Just chiming in...

1. I think 21 is not a proper "legal" drinking age when "adult" age 18 is common for all other aspects. Just never made common sense to me that one is responsible at 18 for marriage, armed services, etc but can't be trusted with a beer.

2. I would prefer to have my child try alcohol in an environment I can control before sending off to college.

3. I full acknowledge #2 is only for my benefit to create a false sense of security. If forced to be honest with myself I don't think it would stop a child from binge drinking. Binge drinking has been occuring on college campuses since my day. It doesn't matter the caliber of the school or the age of the student (under or over 21). Our cultural has portrayed it as a right of passage.

4. I will never believe my lines of communication with my child are so good that they would confide all non-academic aspects of college (drinking or the other "rite of passage" -- sex) with me. I HOPE my kids will, but I don't fully believe it. I'm either a realist or a pessimist.

5. You can bet I'll be nudging my kids toward the schools that offer numerous non-alcoholic social activities attended in mass.

6. This post has me thinking of doing college tours on Saturday nights just to gleam the "whole" college cultural.

China

"If you don't want to know what others think of your approach, why did you ask us to comment?"

Here's really the only things that are bothering me:

The continual use of the word "illegal." Read my post #6. No one has acknowledged that what I did was absolutely NOT illegal.

Comments such as:

"The notion that teenagers should be allowed to have a couple of beers during a family barbeque because no barbeque is complete without alcohol just seems odd to me." (No one said nor implied this.......it's the way it was interpreted by the reader.)

"Personally, I have never had the desire to encourage my children to drink at any age." (I hope I didn't use the word "encourage." That's not what I did. It's sort of like putting words in my mouth. If I did use the word, that was my mistake.)

"In our family, you don't get to spend the day on the couch when you make a bad decision." (Sorry, that one just sounded "preachy" to me and rubbed me the wrong way.)

So, sorry if I seem sensitive. I do like hearing other's opinions. I just felt that some of the opinions were a little critical. I have nothing negative to say to people who handle it differently - except that they should be a little more open-minded. How many times could I write that "each child/family is different.?" I think what's missing are the people disagreeing with me are NOT saying that part. I understand that it might not be right for them, but they should acknowledge that it might, in fact, be right for others.

Hunt

china, I think you, unfortunately, had to stand in for the horrible parents who encourage their kids to drink, throw parties where they supply alcohol to other people's kids, and who drink themselves into a stupor each night. Since they don't post here (probably becuase they're too blotto to see the screen), criticism that is justly aimed at them sort of landed on you.

hudsonvalley51

Hunt, I think there is another large group of parents you haven't accounted for who we also rarely if ever see on CC. That's the parents who say "Kids will be kids," of course they are going to drink, but they aren't going to do it in my house. These are the parents who enable their kids by buying them cars and setting few limits on their use, allowing their kids to go out without curfews or any clear idea where they are going. These are parents who would rather not be unpopular or who don't want to impose rules that might put a crimp in their child's social status in high school. Our community is full of parents such as this despite the fact that barely a year goes by that at least one kid isn't badly injured or worse after consumming alcohol at the home of one of their classmates with "cool parents."

China

Hunt - Thank you. What you said makes a lot of sense. I agree with both you and hudsonvalley51 about these other types of parents. I definitely know some of them. Actually, my kids like to joke with me and will sometimes tell me I'm such a great "friend" to them because they know one of my personal pet peeves are the parents who want so badly to be their kids' friend that they forget to be a parent! There's never been a doubt in our house who are the parents. We've made plenty of unpopular decisions - including never allowing our kids go to unsupervised parties (yes I checked) and not letting them sleep out of the house (as I mentioned in the original post.) Again, Hunt, I think what you said might explain why I'm feeling a little defensive. I think I am being sort of lumped in with the type of parents I personally don't want to be like - and really never have been.

atomom

We have always let our kids know that we expect them to obey the law. The drinking age is 21, so no drinking until you are 21. The drinking age changed from 18-21 when I was in college, and I think it was a good thing. I totally agree with the law.

I think that a lot of parents remember the days when they were in college, when the drinking age was 18, and just expect their kids to drink freshman year. They disagree with the law, and send mixed messages to their kids. IMO this is a huge part of the underage drinking problem. Even though it is not against the law to serve kids alcohol in your own home, if a kid gets used to drinking at 16-18 at home and sees having a couple drinks as part of social occasions--and then he/she goes off to college and drinks at parties, guess what? Even if the kid is drinking in moderation and not driving or getting out of control--
He/she is breaking the law. (The parents didn't, but they set the kid up to think it is OK/normal/expected/fun to drink alcohol at 18). If kid gets busted for underage drinking, what will he/she say? "My mom/dad said it is a dumb law. . ." Good luck with that.

JHS

I won't presume to know what kinds of lives all of you live, and in what kinds of communities. In MY community -- mainly white, affluent, urban/suburban, most of the kids in private school -- the number of kids who don't do any drinking (and who don't at least occasionally use marijuana) is very small. Well under 10%, maybe well under 5%. Most of the parents who talk the way most of you are talking -- and that percentage is way over 10%, more like 1/3 -- are either lying for the sake of appearances, engaging in active self-deception, or are being systematically deceived by their kids.

I know there are other communities where many more kids don't drink, although even there I think there is a big gap between reality and what parents say.

(The number of parents who are actively complicit in serving large quantities of alcohol to large numbers of teens in my corner of the world is tiny, by the way. You can't blame the drinking on them.)

A few years ago, there was an incident where a friend of my children's had to be hospitalized for alcohol poisoning during orientation week at her college (one of those elite, residential, somewhat isolated LACs at which this sort of thing happens all too often). She was a great kid, an athlete, good student, good worker, and a good person. Lots of sympathetic conversations with her parents about how unfortunate it was that she found herself, inexperienced, suddenly thrown into the deep end of college iniquity. My daughter's comment, when she heard about it: "It's a miracle this didn't happen every weekend last spring, given how much she was drinking then. If this is news to her parents, they have a problem."

Kids do need to learn their limits, and to learn how to regulate their behavior. I didn't have a magic solution, and I had nothing like China's systematic educational program. I occasionally let my kids have a drink at family parties, or on vacation in places where it was legal. I modeled moderation in alcohol consumption. I talked to them about binge drinking, alcoholism, enabling people engaging in really self-destructive behaviors, the dangers of drunk driving. I think it would be difficult to have those conversations honestly and effectively without letting them acknowledge, free of consequences, that they and their friends drank sometimes. Which of course means that I was complicit.

My son's relationship with his freshman roommate was soured by the roommate's drinking. This was a very sheltered Chinese-American math kid from a suburban academic community, who quite possibly didn't drink at all in high school. In his first year of college, he was a sloppy drunk. My son devoutly wished that he had learned how to handle drinking before my son had to live in the same room with him.

Northstarmom

"In his first year of college, he was a sloppy drunk. My son devoutly wished that he had learned how to handle drinking before my son had to live in the same room with him."

I don't think parents' teaching kids how to drink solves this problem. From what I've seen on FB and overheard in young adults' conversations, too many young people think it's fun to get vomiting drunk. Apparently, if they don't vomit while drinking or have a hangover the next day, they feel they didn't have a good time.

I don't understand their definition of fun. I suspect it's due more to a lack of social skills than to whether their parents tried to teach them how to drink responsibly. The kids don't want to do what adults would call responsible, social drinking.

pugmadkate

When a person chooses to binge drink, they they are choosing to let down themselves or someone else down the next day. It could be studying, working, parenting or going to class. We wanted him to know exactly what it felt like to have to show up for your life in that state.

A person can throw up in the yard just as easily as in a bathroom and being "pretty much" incapable is not the same as sucking it up and doing what you promised to do. We put him to work for a reason. He was scheduled to do yard work and knew that ahead of time, although we did add on the afternoon as the punishment part.

Alcoholism is a serious problem on both sides of his family. I do not drink at all, his father drinks socially a few times a month and never in excess. Once his father has one drink, then I'm the driver and so on. We've modeled responsible behavior. We've talked openly and honestly about his genetic disposition. He sees what is has done in our extended family.

If there were a body of evidence that supported introducing alcohol in the home to older teens and positive outcomes later in life in terms of alcohol consumption, I'd be very interested to read it and think it over. Lacking that, I do not think that letting a teen drink "responsibly" at home is anymore influential than modeling behavior and open dialogue. In fact, my personal hunch is that parent's behavior and attitude towards alcohol is far more influential than the teen actually consuming it.

pugmadkate

Oh, come on. Do you really believe that a child bright enough to be in college could not figure out in a matter of days the cause and effect of alcohol consumption? This kid wanted to get "sloppy drunk" and he did. This is not a case of lack of proper home training.

China

"Oh, come on. Do you really believe that a child bright enough to be in college could not figure out in a matter of days the cause and effect of alcohol consumption? This kid wanted to get "sloppy drunk" and he did. This is not a case of lack of proper home training."

You should probably preface this type of statement with: IN MY OPINION. That's all this is - your opinion. You really have no idea the actual cause of this situation. Maybe is WAS a case of lack of proper home training. You just don't know.

OK - obviously we should just agree to disagree. If I'm happy with my methods and you're happy with yours, it's all good.