Outlaw the BA?

[mythmom]

I haven't read this book, but I would not pursue any book written by this author. The research in THE BELL CURVE was eventually exposed as manipulated, racist drivel. Stephen J. Gould devoted some of his precious time to this.

[notrichenough]

@notrichenough"You can work for 40 years at minimum wage, score a job for 3 years at $100K, and you get $75K+/year for life."

It is exactly this knee-jerk type reaction to education and to teachers, their level of commitment and their benefits which is driving an adversarial rather than cooperative environment between the public and education.

I was talking about state and municipal employees in general, not just teachers.

In my town teachers right out of college get $44,000/year for 183 days of work, with a benefit package you would be hard-pressed to find in private industry. Teacher raises in the first 10 years average 7-8%, and can be quite a bit higher if they continue their education. The average in 2010 was almost $84,000. With two more years of contract increases and ladder steps the average is now probably close to $90K.

So parents, send your budding teachers to my town! It seems we are more than supportive.

[Erin's Dad]

^ Just curious, what state is this?

[notrichenough]

^ Massachusetts.

[mthames]

It seems like the idea behind a college education equaling a job might be something that we have to face is simply not true. There are so many different degree's that really don't relate to a job in any way shape or form. It is often on the back of the person with the degree to turn what they have into something that makes money.

A BA in many areas can qualify one for a teaching position. No one will get rich being a teacher, that is true, but it is a living wage. The teaching job will be in the areas of elementary, middle, and high school education at that level. With a MA it is possible to get a job as a teacher at a university. It is possible but definitely not guaranteed.

A BA can make a person a more well rounded individual. It is an education, not job preparation. There is a lot that is learned through college that is not directly related to the subject being studied. You learn to push yourself, when completing assignments. That is a pretty big life skill. You will also learn how to relate to a greater variety of people and see what a lot of different people are like. That is a good way to learn more about life, but not necessarily going to land anyone a job.

[chaosakita]

Even if jobs didn't require people to have a degree, what would stop people from hiring based on having one? Right now, people hire based on degree to save time because they can look through less applicants that way.

[Erin's Dad]

Notrichenough, that's interesting. The dep't of education publishes an average salary for teachers. In all of the state of MA there is not an $84K average in the report. Teacher Salaries Report (DISTRICT) - Massachusetts Directory Profiles This is for 2009/10 vs. the 2010 you reference but it's hard to believe the total avg can climb that much in one year to make up for the avgs in the $60K range.

[notrichenough]

Erin's Dad, that's interesting, because I count 4 systems that round to $84K in that report.

[XaviFM]

Three cheers to tunnel vision and preconceived arguments.

[glido]

"There are so many different degree's that really don't relate to a job in any way shape or form." - mthames

That is precisely the point that Murray makes.

Many employers don't really care what you learned while attaining your B.A, but they are glad to know that you were able to make it to class everyday for four years and you can communicate on paper. They will teach you what you need to know for the job. They figure you did okay on the SAT and the Admissions Committee for your job did all the heavy lifting.

[GMTplus7]

@glido,

We all know the dirty little truth that a BA can be attained without making it to class everyday for four years and without being able to communicate on paper...

[kmcmom13]

I think his point is that requiring a BA is more a form of socioeconomic screening than aptitude screening and that the assumptions about intelligence that go hand in hand with a degree are no longer meaningful by the sheer ubiquity of BAs. Specific aptitude screening makes sense.

[uskoolfish]

I don't think a BA needs to be a requirement for a job. What should be the requirement are the skills we feel one should have after attaining the degree--or as an alternative through life experience and innate intelligence or talent.

So let the screening be a writing sample based on reading and interpreting a passage. Or coming up with a plan to solve a complex problem.

I'm sure that this would disqualify some BA candidates and allow in those who have not attained the degree, but have the necessary skills to succeed.

[chaosakita]

If a BA didn't contribute to job skills, why do employers keep on using them as a requirements for a job? Don't employers want to hire the best candidates?

The more I think about this, the more ridiculous Murray seems to me. As someone bought it up before, as a libertarian, shouldn't Murray just be ok with how the marketplace for workers is functioning right now and NOT ask the courts to get involved?

Like I said in my previous post, the requirement is there for the benefit of employers. Let's use this theoretical example: If college graduates and non-college graduates make up 50% of applicants but 90% of the potential hires would be college graduates and only 10% of the potential hires are not, then employers can simply avoid looking at 50% of the applicants, while missing out on a tenth of their hires. This system works perfectly fine. What we need now is some way to make college degrees more affordable, that's all.

[Erin's Dad]

Notrich, my apologies. I should not have looked at it on the microlaptop. I missed the five districts out of 329 which are $84K or higher.