The Greek Decision...

[lenny2]

Bringing up hazing in other types of organizations is a red herring to this discussion. We were discussing the pros and cons of fraternities. What does the fact that some bands haze have to do with whether it's a good idea to join a fraternity?

[lenny2]

Wow, that UT memo is amazing. I wish all schools published something like that. I, for one, can see positive aspects to Greek life for many students and I wish that all of the organizations would just cut out all the stupid stuff that is endangering their members. I realize that what I think is "stupid" will not be what most college students think is "stupid," but I think that most of us can agree that Greek life would improve if hazing would stop. That memo seems to be a good step in the right direction toward helping students make informed choices.

[Bay]

Lenny,
Discussing fraternity hazing in the context of all college hazing keeps it in perspective. One might argue that fraternity hazing is less likely to occur or fly under the radar because they are the ones targeted by the media.

[MizzBee]

OP if you are still there, just looking at the school's website, there are a few fraternities that obviously care about scholarship. The highest average GPA for a fraternity is 3.57, compared to the all fraternity average of 2.96 and the all university men average of 2.87. They have the grade reports listed by semester, so it would be easy to research trends, especially as he is going through recruitment. Each member is required to do 10 hours each semester of community service and annually must host a philanthropy event involving 75% of its members. It also appears the school asks for risk assessments before events are approved and have required training on sexual assault, alcohol and drug abuse, hazing and diversity. Each chapter must have a risk chair and a scholarship chair and there is a campus judicial board that has the power to bring charges and sanction individual chapters.

Also, since it appears IFC recruitment is in June, it seems to be a great way to meet students regardless of whether or not he decides to join.

[redpoint]

"One might argue that fraternity hazing is less likely to occur or fly under the radar because they are the ones targeted by the media."

Does the media target fraternities, per se. I don't think so. They target sensational stories and they can find those in fraternity hazing stories. The media was just as happy to report on the marching band hazing death in Florida.

[redpoint]

That memo, with the list of what hazing is, is proof that those things do happen. And it is not a frivolous list: It doesn't say hazing is being forced to wear a color, or anything else that could be looked at as being overly-rigid.

[Bay]

Red point
I'm on my phone so it is too hard to do the research, but I have a hunch that if you research deaths of 18-24 year olds due to alcohol poisoning, the majority will not be fraternity men. We don't hear much about the others.

[redpoint]

True, alcohol death in a young person will make local news, not national news. BUT if the death were the result of some ritualized group activity, it would make national news.

[Hanna]

"compared to the all fraternity average of 2.96 and the all university men average of 2.87"

I don't have a dog in the race, and I agree that some chapters do a lot to support members academically.

That said, I'm always a little skeptical about the meaning of these reported GPAs, which many schools tout to prove that Greek membership contributes to academic achievement. I don't doubt that the numbers are accurate, but the fraternities and sororities disproportionately select from the population of white, middle-class, straight-from-high-school, first-time freshmen -- in other words, a population that is likely to have higher than average grades regardless of Greek membership. At other flagships less selective than Texas (like Oklahoma), high school academic performance is actually a big factor in rush, especially for girls. At a fraternity chapter with a 3.5 GPA, you can bet that academics are a rush criterion. So the published chapter GPAs prove that it's possible to be in a Greek group and succeed academically, but given the selection biases, they do not prove that the groups have a neutral or positive impact on members' GPA. It's possible that the demographic peers of the Greek students are doing even better, and these students would have higher grades if they hadn't joined.

(I'm aware that there are minority-oriented Greek groups at UT and elsewhere, but at non-HBCUs, those chapters choose to be much smaller than the historically white chapters, so their impact on the Greek GPA is tiny. Even if these groups add up to a third of the chapters on a given campus, they may only represent one twentieth of the student members.)

[Bay]

I am not skeptical about the meaning of the GPAs. The vast majority of college students do not go to grad school, so whether they graduate with a 2.97 or a 3.03 is relatively meaningless. The meaningful part is that the Greeks are earning grades that will earn them their diploma, and that is the goal for most students.

[lenny2]

But, Bay, if your point is that there are bad things going on outside of fraternities, too, that does not help prove that bad things aren't going on inside fraternities, which is what we are discussing. On the night after bid night at my D's school, which is a night of great celebration, several sorority girls ended up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning and several others were arrested. Were there other, non-Greek kids drinking too much on campus that night, too? Most probably. But, my point is that many activities within the Greek community foster choices that can be dangerous and downright life threatening (regardless of whether you can find examples of those activities outside of the Greek community). Each student (and parent, if they are paying) has to make the decision for himself and herself whether the plusses of Greek life outweigh the minuses, which include these dangers. They will make those same decisions with regard to any of the activities they participate in, but we are discussing Greek life here.

[MizzBee]

Here are the ones that I can put a spin on:
-Any type of servitude that is of personal benefit to the individual members.
Pledges cleaning up before and after a party, pledges being required to make big sis gifts before pledgeship ends.
Requiring pledges to act as sober sisters/brothers to escort guests home.
-Wearing of embarrassing or uncomfortable clothing
That is wear being forced to wear anything can come into play. In the old days, guys wore beanies to signify they were pledging. Being told to suit up to a football game could fall in that category in the Texas sun.
-Demeaning names
"I hereby name you Pinto" Why? "Why not?"
-Lineups for the purpose of interrogating, demeaning or intimidating
So lineups will hurt the military corps the most. Think of any movie showing any bootcamp where the drill sargeant call them sissies, girls, insults their mother, etc. That is hazing too. But asking the pledge class to recite the founders history, etc could fall under that as well.

So when you say things are not overly rigid, I will counter with examples of things that have been reported as hazing that I have personal knowledge of. In one case a young lady (not a pledge) because she was required to wear a matching shirt if she wanted to attend our sponsored event and the color was not flattering. the T-shirt became optional.

[Hanna]

"The vast majority of college students do not go to grad school, whether they graduate with a 2.97 or a 3.03 is relatively meaningless."

Well, that is true. I imagine that the kids of CC readers are not representative of the overall population, though.

[Bay]

Here is a relatively meaningless anecdote, but evidence nonetheless: My nephew was in a fraternity at Stanford and will be graduating from one of the top med schools this Spring.

[SWTCAT]

I feel that I have to jump in here..
The bottom line is that those of us that have kids that are involved in the Greek system see the benefits from FIRST HAND knowledge and experience. Those that do not have FIRST HAND knowledge and experience are basing thier opinions on what they have read or heard in the media..or from second hand knowledge obtained from Gladys Cravitz down the street.
I could go on and on about my daughter's very positive sorority experience. She is a student at UT, which has a very small greek community compared to the student body..about 12%. If anything, she has had positive peer pressure from her sisters to maintain a high GPA. The GPA's of each chapter are publicized in the sorority recruitment book which is handed out to each potential new member before recruitment. There is ALOT of competiton between the sororities to have the highest GPA. The calibre of student that goes to UT is high, so the PNM's are looking for chapters that care about grades. I see this as very postive.
She has also had indirect peer pressure from her sisters to not be a "slug" this summer and try to get an intership. She is surrounded by girls that are driven and ambitious. I see this as postive. It pushes her out of her comfort zone and she wants to keep up.
She has met many alumna that have very good connections..this will be a postive for her when she enters the job market.
She has become a leader in her sorority and has already been given some very big responsibilites. She has become very good at muti-tasking...a good life skill to have. She has had to speak in front of very large groups. She has learned to compromise and make important decisions. She has learned to think of others and not just herself. She has learned to become a better friend.
I would go out on a limb and say that most fraternities would offer the same experiences to thier members..ie leadership, scholarship, friendship, etc..however, the media doesn't talk about all of those things because it's not sensational...not newsworthy...

After reading this entire thread, my point is proven..those that want to bash greeks do not have a dog in the fight and those that want to defend greeks have FIRST HAND knowledge..hmmmm