The Greek Decision...

[mini]

She found plenty of young men outside of fraternities, but I'll send her your recommendation in case she ever finds herself hard up. Any particular frat you'd like to recommend? (Not likely, though, as she's working close to full time while completing grad school, and has her CPA exams this summer.)

[redpoint]

Fraternity, You misunderstood what mini said. You were not reading for content, but Looking for something to criticize mini for. It's not that date rape doesn't exist, it's that date rape IS rape. That "have fun in your fantasy world" bit is overly snarky and uncalled for.

Oh, and I see you opened up a new account just to post on this thread and ensure your anonymity.

[redpoint]

This was an interesting conversation until certain people had to get all snarky and nasty.

[redpoint]

How much are these fraternity fees?

[lenny2]

Fees vary, depending on whether the brothers have a house to support, whether they eat and live at the house, whether they take these out-of-state trips, and things like that, but I would say anywhere from $500+ per semester on up to over $2000 or more. There are also expenses during the year, such as the purchase of t-shirts for every event (and there are lots). But, as I say, fees vary so you really have to investigate your individual situation.

[Bay]

This was an interesting conversation until certain people had to get all snarky and nasty.

Seriously. The implication that fraternity men are only fit for those who are "hard up," are perpetrators of date rape, the snarkiness about "holy" sorority women and their "girl scout cookie" philanthropies, and that parents ought to threaten their students with not paying tuition if they join fraternities and don't keep their grades up was uncalled for, insulting and deserving of some push back. If you don't see that, then you are blinded by your own bias.

[dwhite]

Bay - you are absolutely right! I thought those comments were incredibly sarcastic, immature, narrow-minded and just plain mean.

This topic never ends well, so perhaps we should just respect each other and the choices our children make.

Peace

[mini]

The data are there for anyone who wants to look at them. What people want to do them is up to them.

And as I wrote:

"I'm sure there are thousands of students who have had satisfactory Greek experiences."

[saintfan]

Quote lenny2:
"The problem I see with the Greek organizations at many universities (not all) is the peer pressure atmophere it creates toward bad (and dangerous) behavior, layered on top of all the good things that they offer."

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I would agree on the atmosphere or peer pressure that can promote or encourage behavior that a young person almost certainly would not engage in on their own to that degree. I knew 2 young men who attended the University of Washington. Both were "clean cut", smart guys and not party guys in high school. One fell to his death from the roof of a fraternity (alcohol was involved) in the first month of his freshman year. The other was one of a group young pledges discovered in the basement of their frat during "Hell Week" in his skivvies, slathered in peanut butter and there were sheep involved. A concerned neighbor called the cops when he saw the sheep. You can say that these young men should have had better judgement, or run the other way when they started to see that the behavior was crossing the line, but it was a sanctioned environment. There seems to be a bit of the frog in heating water syndrome where maybe kids don't realize that it's out of hand until it's really out of hand. They develop a new sense of normal.

[lenny2]

^^^^ Completely agree!

[saintfan]

I would like to add that whatever decision a student and his/her family make around Greek organizations one should IMHO go in with eyes wide open . . . to know what one is signing up for. It coolers are your thing, fine, but the surprise call to a parent for financial aid to fund a "hostess gift" as it was called above would ideally be avoided. I can't imagine that any young man goes into pledge week thinking that they will end up in their underwear, covered with peanut butter in the custody of the police - animal control officers having corralled the other pledge invitees. Who signs up for that eyes wide open? Nobody thinks that they might not make it through the week alive.

I was a double legacy at a house that is very prominent in our area and nationally, but chose not to rush. My mom didn't understand that her house had changed since she was a straight laced mortarboard president sorority girl. It has since been disciplined and disbanded or "unrecognized" at the state university and reprimanded at the flagship - both for hazing.

Below is a quote from a chat board responding to the incident at the state university 2/12. The post reads as if it's written by the mother of a female student. Pay special attention to the last line. "They were funny, smart girls and she couldn't imagine them doing what she heard was done."

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"I can't begin to explain the mind of an 18 year old girl or what they thought had happened or had heard happened, but yeah, I think there are some girls that if they know a certain chapter is popular on that campus and has always been pretty popular at that school then they either a) don't care if they were accused of hazing or b) don't think it was that big of a deal. I know what daughter heard happened the first time, but I don't know at all if any of it was true. People hear a lot of rumors and things get exaggerated, so who knows. Either way, they were willing to take that risk.

I will say - daughter had several close friends in that group the year she was there and loved them. They were also one of her favorite groups going through recruitment. This all came out after that, but I know it was sad for her to hear because the girls she knew in that chapter were fun, funny, smart girls and she couldn't imagine them doing what she heard was done."

[Bay]

Did anyone get hurt in the peanut butter/sheep incident? If not, I will admit that I thought it was hilarious.

[collegealum314]

^I like peanut butter as much as the next guy, but it doesn't help foster leadership skills.

[saintfan]

A quote from the Intra-fraternity Council Spokesperson:
``They realize this was a stupid mistake,'' Tribble said. ``They don't deny having the sheep in the house, and they say they were just trying to scare their pledges.''
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Well at least they don't deny having had the sheep. This must be where the leadership training to be captains of industry comes in. Maybe now they're the ones saying that they don't deny that there's oil but the pelican's like it.

If you liked that and thought the sheep liked it, you'll love this . . .
"The UW hasn't been immune. In January 1998 a young member of Delta Kappa Epsilon committed suicide, allegedly after a six-day hazing ritual."

It's all fun and games until someone puts an eye out.

[saintfan]

a few more musings . . .

I was reflecting on the young man who I knew who lost his life at a frat (a HS boyfriend of my sister) and it reminded me of the drunk driving presentations that came to our school. When I was in high school there was a horrible accident with teenagers drinking and driving. One survived. They towed the car and left it in the courtyard of our school for a week. The broken glass of the windshield had been treated somehow to stabilize the glass, but the rest was is it had been. The survivor gave a very moving presentation to the school. Seeing that car up close added a level of reality that we usually didn't get. It hadn't been cleaned up and it was shocking . . . gruesome almost. Nobody said that cars aren't fun or useful or you shouldn't drive them. Nobody said that you shouldn't drive with your friends or you can't take your car to the beach and have a great time. What they were trying to do was to allow us a glimpse into our own mortality. As teens we didn't have some special shield that would keep things from going too far wrong.

Kids often don't see how things an go wrong until it's too late - and I'm thinking that 18 is still a kid. What mini and others are saying is that just because your kid is nice, and was brought up in a good home and seems to have it together it doesn't mean you and they shouldn't do your due diligence about the Greek situation at their school before deciding on that option.