The Greek Decision...

[Bay]

"Suddenly at 18 you go from being a child to having free-will? You can be coerced at 17 but it's your choice at 18?"
That's how our society works.

Not only does it work that way, it has been working that way forever. Parents are expected to know this, and to spend the first 18 years of their childrens' lives preparing them to live on their own and make decisions on their own and take responsibility for their actions. College is a time for mom and dad to back off.

[redpoint]

So is it the kids' fault if they go along with the fraternity and do the dumb thing they were asked to do? Because they are now an adult. Or maybe the fraternity itself (the leaders, the group dynamic) can share some of the blame?

[12daughter]

Sorry to jump into conversation so late, but just rediscovered CC after briefly checking it out last year when D was looking for a school. I found this thread extremely relevant because our D joined a sorority at her university this year. While I always had negative opinions of the Greek system and can now best be described as ambivalent, we did check out the Greek system at her school before agreeing to pay for it (she had a full-ride scholarship so we had told her she could use some of the money we had saved on tuition room/board for extras like study abroad, activities... and she chose Greek as one of her activities). Because her school does not have Greek housing, is a dry campus (although there are always off campus opportunities for drinking the dry campus does cut down on it), and we were assured by family friends involved in Greek life there that hazing is absolutely not tolerated, we agreed to pay for all sorority related costs. So far, I have to admit that it has been a positive experience for her - her sorority sisters place a strong emphasis on leadership, and their extra push has encouraged her to become involved in several campus organizations unrelated to Greek life. However, this week I too found out one of the frats had a "cooler/shared rooms" formal. My husband and I were thrilled that D was not asked to it, but realize it could come up in the future. Our first opinion was that we will not allow her to go. However, as I read this thread, I realized that many parents feel that, at 18 the students are adults and have the right to make their own decisions. I have to admit, I have always thought that until my child is 21 and is no longer relying on me for insurance, room/board (breaks/summer), car insurance.... she is not quite an adult, and I still have the right to say "No." We have made this opinion fairly clear to both of our daughters as they grew up so it would not be a shock when they turned 18. In fact, this was our response when D1 requested to go on a "senior trip" to Florida last year. As we've told them, yes, legally they do have the right to do what they want, but when they do that, they need to become totally independent. As I am reading this thread though, I am wondering if we are far out of the norm in this. Are there any other parents in this day and age that feel the same way? I am not looking for affirmation, but just wanting to know if we are really off base and would like others thoughtful opinions that perhaps will change our way of thinking.

[lenny2]

In discussing the cooler trip with my D, she gave me the "I'm 19 and can do whatever I want" line. My response to that was, "You're right. I can't stop you from making your own decisions and from doing whatever you want. But, I don't have to pay for things that I think are poor decisions." If my D had a job, was paying her own tuition, and could pay for her own sorority expenses, too, then I would feel that I had no say in the matter. But, given that we are still footing virtually all of her bills, her dad and I will continue to exercise our own discretion when it comes to paying for activities she wants to participate in. And, my husband is always threatening to cut off tuition payments if she makes a really bad decision that we wouldn't approve of, but I doubt he would really follow through on that (unless it was REALLY bad, and we thought that we needed to bring her home or transfer her to another school). I can't imagine that she would ever do something that bad. I wouldn't count the cooler trip in that category (although my husband might!).

[redpoint]

I think you are totally within your bounds when it comes to issues involving underage drinking, like the coolers. There's no reason you should finance this kind of thing. Its illegal. There are other instances where the parents don't get to decide, ie choice of boyfriends, sex between consenting adults, etc.

[Hanna]

"So is it the kids' fault if they go along with the fraternity and do the dumb thing they were asked to do? Because they are now an adult. Or maybe the fraternity itself (the leaders, the group dynamic) can share some of the blame?"

In my view, blame isn't zero-sum and doesn't have to be shared. The adult is 100% responsible for his/her bad decisions, and the institution/peers are 100% responsible for the bad influences they may exert. This applies in lots of different circumstances.

[redpoint]

I agree, Hanna, and if that's the case, the fraternities in many situations are at fault, even if the adults must take personal responsibility. I don't think the pro-Greeks on this thread can argue that their organizations are 100 percent lily white organizations. Yes, defend them on their merits, obviously there are some, but don't neglect the dark side, that can be truly terrible.

[12daughter]

Thanks for the input lenny and redpoint. Your emphasis on my right to not finance activities I don't agree with not only helped me feel better about that, but also, your final point, redpoint, was a wake-up call. I had not realized how much power I felt I had until my initial response to the comment about no say in sex between consenting adults, was" I can say no to that too, if she is under 21." As I thought about typing my response, I couldn't think of a single rationale I could give to support my argument. I realized my financial support has nothing to do with that. And, while I could still set rules about what happens in my home.... I really don't have any say in matters not relating to financial support. Obviously, I still am learning my role in this new parenting phase. Kind of makes me miss the days of diapers and carseats which I couldn't wait to get through!

[parent1986]

The LaTimes today reported another Frat death recently at one of the San Diego Unies.

Incidentally, I found out my child joined a fraternity AFTER he had joined. It was the furthest thing from my mind (never discussed in the college search process) and I was shocked and opposed at first. It did work out.

I will say that it was very expensive, my son paid for most of the extras, but it was a constant financial annoyance for three years. I found that the cost is determined by the size of the fraternity. Fraternities with more members cost less, smaller fraternities have higher fees because less members split all the costs.

[Lafalum84]

Re: the coolers - for daughters -

Sororities and the cooler thing are separate issues. It's the fraternities' banquet/weekend-away things that involve coolers. Any girl who a frat brother invites to a weekend-away would be expected to bring a cooler, and there's no rule that says frat brothers can only invite sorority girls. So don't get the cooler issue mixed up with your daughter joining a sorority. She could stay independent and still be invited to a frat weekend by a guy and end up decorating and filling a cooler. She could join a sorority and not get invited to a frat weekend, or choose to say no.

Also, the coolers tend to be a Southern thing, as do the weekends away. My S just graduated from a LAC in Pennsylvania. His fraternity banquets were just that - banquet dinner-dances. They did not do weekends away, and dates were not expected to provide anything.

[lenny2]

Although the coolers may be a southern tradition, I see coolers on the Facebook cooler page for trips involving Baltimore, Stanford, and St. Louis (is that southern?) and I've read about trips to the mountains in New York. More than 24,000 girls are members of the FB group. I think it's everywhere.

And, regarding the comment about missing the days of diapers and carseats, I always say that whoever coined the term "terrible twos" hadn't yet raised a teenager.

[boysx3]

LAF, my experience with two of my sons' fraternities have been more like yours....on campus activities, no coolers....

Two of my sons joined fraternities at American and U Denver, and both have had good experiences. Yes, they have gone to parties with alcohol, and I don't like that one bit and they know it. But it was only at an off-campus apartment party that was not fraternity related that my son told me two girls had to be transported to a hospital because they drank too much. He said they had arrived at the party already drunk and had continued drinking. My son was not drinking that night....generally, he doesn't drink at all and when he does, not to excess. Both boys that went greek had a lot of friends that were not greek, and while the fraternity was a big chunk of their college experiences, it did not limit them in any way. If anything, they received encouragement from their brothers to stretch for new experiences and support and advice for each new challenge.

What's funny is that my third son, who went to school at Emory in Atlanta, did not join a fraternity....and there was much more partying and drinking in his social group compared to that of his two younger brothers who did join fraternities.

For what it's worth, both that have finished college were honors graduates.

I don't think the fraternities forced my sons to do anything they did not choose to do...and some of the things they chose to do were good choices, and some were less so....fraternity related and not-fraternity related.

There is one thing that puzzles me....it seems to me that the families with students in greek organizations don't seem to have the need to criticize those who do not choose to join, while those whose children do not choose to join seem to be much more judgmental. I'm not sure why. Having had sons who made different choices with respect to greek life, I have seen the pros and cons of each choice and just don't understand the vitriol.

[dwhite]

QUOTE:

"There is one thing that puzzles me....it seems to me that the families with students in greek organizations don't seem to have the need to criticize those who do not choose to join, while those whose children do not choose to join seem to be much more judgmental. I'm not sure why. Having had sons who made different choices with respect to greek life, I have seen the pros and cons of each choice and just don't understand the vitriol."

i totally agree!! That is what I was trying to say in an earlier post about respecting our kid's choices.

[MizzBee]

Thank you boxsx3.

[Bay]

just don't understand the vitriol.

In general, ignorance breeds fear. A lot of people who have no experience with Greek life look only at the headlines and cannot process the fact that the number of Greek-related deaths is infinitesimally small compared to the number of participants, the vast majority of whom have very positive experiences.