High school transcript bias

[PAmom18]

So I had a conversation with a friend this morning as both of our kids are seniors when he casually mentions that adcoms do not have as much respect for a high GPA kid coming from a day school (private, parochial etc) vs a public school. I am not talking about college preparatory expensive boarding schools but any other alternative to a public school. He is told that since day schools tend to be small, they inflate the grades so an unweighted 4.0 GPA student from a day school does not equal his/her counterpart from a public school with a class in thousands. (I am a city girl so not talking about rural schools). Friend's solution is to encourage his kid to take AP tests and College in High School classes to prove that that the kid does know the subject. Friend claims that he has heard about that bias from a few adcom reps.
Is there any weight to this statement? Granted, our small day school transcript is printed on a regular paper with no bells and whistles, we do not have a full-time guidance counselor either but hard work is hard work, and, if the kid has a 4.0, I am inclined to believe that they work just as much as public school student to get that A.

[SteveMA]

I guess I am not sure what you mean by a day school after you have excluded every other kind of school that I am familiar with. Yes, some local ad comms know that some schools inflate grades and as such, don't place as much merit on the GPA as they do ACT/SAT test scores. I don't know of any schools, and there may be some, that use AP scores for admissions. So, a 4.0 student (UW) with a 22 on the ACT would be suspect for admissions.

[emeraldkity4]

No I would disagree.
My oldest attended a very small private day school. Grades weren't inflated, neither were they weighted. It actually was quite a rigorous school, and students were accepted at lacs & universities all over the country, including the ones that are mentioned on CC.
Holistic admissions involve more than transcripts. They include recommendations, essays, interviews when possible and test scores. My daughters college also required a graded research paper.

[ucbalumnus]

It probably depends on the specific school, since private schools vary all over the place in academic rigor, just like public schools.

[mathmom]

Many colleges have regional representatives which gives them better insight into what an A actually means at various schools. There are schools both public and private where A's are given out like candy.

Here on CC I often read about kids who have gotten A's in school and then get very middling scores on the SATs. I don't think they are all bad test takers, I think some of them really just haven't gotten a very good education. I am frequently horriifed by stories here of kids who have taken history classes without ever righting a research paper. Or Calculus AP classes where no one has passed the AP.

Taking the SAT subject tests and AP tests are definitely one way to demonstrate to admissions counselors that your child knows the material, but it may not be necessary except to the extent that schools require certain testing. (I don't think any require AP tests, but you may want to take them for other reasons.) What sort of placement does your school have? Have you talked to the guidance counselors yet? By the time I'd spent four years with kids at our high school I was pretty confident from all the college nights they'd organized, the number of kids who regularly got into the CC list of "top colleges" etc. that the counseling department was doing a pretty good job despite being woefully understaffed.

I do think there may be a bit of an advantage to a kid coming from a large public school with a large less high performing group because it means that the top students really do end up in the top 10% of the class.

[compmom]

There is a lot of variation among public high schools as well. At our small, local public high school, A's are not that hard to get in many classes, either. However, we do have AP classes and students take those exams. Most of our kids do fine with admissions.

Generally, admissions people want you to take the most rigorous classes AVAILABLE at your school. Going beyond what is offered is impressive, but not necessary.

SAT II's can also demonstrate mastery of content, and the SAT I's can help to demonstrate ability to do college classes, some feel (many schools are not test optional, actually, since these tests are controversial).

It might help if you provided more information. How is your son's school regarded? If he is applying to public schools, they tend to be more stats-oriented so the GPA and SAT's are important, so he would be fine, assuming his SAT's reflect the same level of ability as his GPA.

Many private schools have basic requirements for GPA and SAT's but after that, are "holistic" (as someone else just said) about admissions, so the answer to your son's dilemma would depend on where he is applying, and what else he does besides academics.
They do not admit someone with a GPA of 4.0 over someone with a 3.9, or someone with an SAT of 750 over 740, for example.

This is a long way of saying I wouldn't worry about it too much. If he is trying to get into a top school based on academics, he could consider taking AP exams or college classes. But overall, I believe kids should enjoy their senior year, so I would only suggest those if he would truly enjoy them.

[PolarBearVsShark]

I told my kid he'd better step it up in college so it won't make his high school look bad. Leveraging by means of reputation affecting legacy. So it seems likely some colleges extrapolate "grade inflation" based on past experiences with admittees from schools with suspected grade inflation. Although, wasn't there a study a few years ago that discounted the grade inflation theory? Great posts by compmom and mathmom, btw.

[FlyMeToTheMoon]

I thought adcoms were familiar with each individual high school so that they could assess the GPAs accordingly. I don't think you can make any blanket statements about the GPA from a private vs public school.

[bclintonk]

Originally Posted by mathmom

I don't think any require AP tests, but you may want to take them for other reasons.

Just to elaborate a bit: to the best of my knowledge, no college requires AP test scores, though a few "test-flexible" colleges will now accept them in lieu of SAT or ACT scores. Some colleges will use them in an ancillary way. For example, if they're not familiar with the high school, or if they are familiar with it and think it's not very rigorous and/or it suffers from rampant grade inflation, a high AP test score might be used to confirm that the applicant really did learn calculus in that AP Calc class where she got an A. In other words, that grade shouldn't be discounted. SAT Subject Tests can also be used in this way, even where they're not required. Most adcoms will not ignore those scores if they're submitted, but they may not be a primary factor in admissions.

Other reasons to submit AP scores: some colleges will award course credit for high AP test scores, though the top colleges usually limit how many credits may be earned this way. AP scores may also be used for placement purposes at some colleges, allowing the student to start at a more advanced level if she's already demonstrated basic competence with a strong AP score.

[PAmom18]

I guess I have to clarify. We do come from a very small private school, almost no opportunites for AP, although I did encourage PAkid to take an AP test on his own at the end of his junior year. We do not have a guidance counselor - no funds for that. It is what it is however, and my kid loves it. I guess I just wanted to throw it out there and see if any other parents have heard of such a bias especially, if you look on other forums, there is an opinion that SAT or ACT though required, are of no great value especially in top schools where everybody has great scores. And, yes, holistically, EC are very important but how do you check them? IMHO, the transcript shows the applicant work ethic especially if you can see the consistency throught the high school career.

[bclintonk]

Originally Posted by FlyMeToTheMoon

I thought adcoms were familiar with each individual high school so that they could assess the GPAs accordingly.

Yes and no. Colleges do have regional reps who are responsible for particular states or regions, and they do get to know particular schools that they have experience with. But there are something like 30,000 high schools in the U.S. Even dividing them up regionally, there are just too many high schools in any given region for the regional rep to know what's going on at every school. In our area (Minneapolis-St.Paul), for example, there are three top private schools and a handful of high-end suburban schools that regularly send tons of kids to elite private colleges and universities. Urban high schools, rural and small-town high schools, low- and moderate-income suburban high schools, not so much. By and large, kids in these latter categories of high schools (which would include most of the high schools in the state) just don't even apply to fancy private colleges and universities, especially if they're out of the region. More will apply to Northwestern, for example, or to one or more of the very good LACs we have here in Minnesota (Carleton, Macalester, St. Olaf) or nearby (e.g., Grinnell, in Iowa). But if a top LAC in the Northeast gets an application from Minnesota, chances are it's going to be from one of the top private schools or one of the high-end suburban schools. The regional reps all know those schools inside and out; they visit them regularly, they may know some of the teachers and GCs, they read plenty of applications from those schools, and they know who they've admitted from those schools in the past. They don't know nearly as much about the Minneapolis or St. Paul public schools, or schools up on the Iron Range, or schools in agricultural areas in western Minnesota. So if a kid applies from one of those latter categories of schools with a transcript showing all As and teacher recs saying this is the best student they've had in the last decade, and they've never even had an application from that school before . . . well, what do those grades and those glowing recommendations mean? And how does that kid stack up against the kid from the fancy private prep school who has a 3.8 in a much stronger class, but who probably got a lot more parental and institutional support along the way? That's where test scores--not only SAT I or ACT but SAT Subject Tests and AP Tests--can go a long way. The regional admissions officer already knows from years of experience (and probably lots of banked data) what the 3.8 from the private prep school means. She doesn't know what the 4.0 from the obscure (to her) HS means, and test scores can provide some additional context.

[Kajon]

In our situation (Catholic in Minnesota), it was our local public school where the grade inflation was so prevalent.

[SlitheyTove]

there is an opinion that SAT or ACT though required, are of no great value especially in top schools where everybody has great scores.

As bclintonk says, standardized tests help confirm that a high-GPA kid from an unknown high school has the academic chops. Within the application pool for top colleges, it's a given that absent some compelling admissions hook every applicant has high grades and high test scores. Having a 2350 instead of 2200 isn't of "great value" for those schools.

The other thing that helps guide the admissions folks is the high school's profile. That's where the school outlines what's available academically at the high school, and how students perform. There will be lists of courses offered, including any honors/AP/IB options, average SAT and ACT scores, the grading scale and how GPA is calculated, the number of graduating seniors, a list of colleges where the previous year's class was accepted (or is matriculating), etc etc etc. All of this gives context to the GPA.

[sheepster]

Same here, Kajon. Several years ago, my D (large Catholic high school) and friend's D (very well-ranked public high school) each finished honors chemistry with the same score-78%. In Catholic school that is a C ; in the public school it was an A. This is just one of many examples I have seen here.

[SteveMA]

sheepster--78% was an A--WOW. At our high school many of the classes have 70% as FAILING, yikes. I've said it here before, and have gotten blasted for it but here it goes again, good grades do NOT mean you got a good education. I will take a C student at our high school compared to a high school that gives A's for 78% any day.