Top schools are not worth it?

[cltdad]

OperaDad - you are greatly overestimating the financial aid for Harvard students with family incomes between $150,000 and $250,000 per year. That said, we have happily paid the very high price at Harvard for our daughter because it is much stronger in her major (physics) and extracurricular (ballet) than our outstanding state flagship, UNC-CH. But if she had different interests we might not have been as willing to spend the money.

[sylvan8798]

Originally Posted by OperaDad

In order for you to be paying full price to attend Harvard, the parents are making a lot more than $150,000+ per year. Harvard's financial aid is: For people making $150k it is 10% of your income, or $15,000/yr. So, in order to be paying full price for Harvard, you are probably making $250k/yr or more (although, I'm guessing at $250k, you are probably paying closer to $40k, not the full $55k to go to Harvard). Assume the differential is $30k per year. If I am making $250k, I would pay $30k/yr to send my kid to Harvard.

My point is: The cost of going to some of the top schools, like Harvard, is not that much more - Unless you are in a really high income bracket, in which case, you are being really cheap not to send them to Harvard if they get in.

Not everyone with a high EFC has a correspondingly high income, as EFC is dictated by assets as well. There is a whole group of us in a zone where our EFC is much higher than we could ever justify. So not making $250K.

[Hat]

Not everyone with a high EFC has a correspondingly high income, as EFC is dictated by assets as well. There is a whole group of us in a zone where our EFC is much higher than we could ever justify. So not making $250K.

When our son applied for college four years ago, our EFC was $5,000 more than the highest COA at any school he applied to, including Big State U, Harvard, UMich, USC and others. Our EFC was approximately our net income after taxes. While he got a few merit scholarships, none were more than one-half the COA. He ended up at Harvard where he was able to graduate after four years for less than the cost of one year at Big State U. It was definitely worth it.

[MTnest]

Harvard takes into account your assets plus whatever your yearly income is. You could be paying near full price if you have assets (house etc.). It is not a straight forward, you pay 10% of what your yearly income is. Plugging in our numbers into their estimator, I know we are not even close to the $250,000 (in our dreams!) and Harvard would be close to full price for us. We live in an area where housing prices are very high. Our house would be a lot less if we lived somewhere else.

[Hunt]

Harvard's calculator excludes the value of your primary residence.

[Hat]

FWIW - Harvard's financial aid is extremely generous. In addition to our home, we owned a small office building and a partial interest in a vacation condo (but we had a couple of old clunker cars). There was also a 529, and some bonds in my son's name. That was the good news, the bad news was that I had recently undergone an operation and it was unlikely that I would return to work (which I have not). My wife made a decent income, but as I said her net income was about the same as our EFC. Our first year's COA was about $2,500 (of which 100% was student contribution).

The second year the cost went up to about $5,000. Before the third year, my wife's mother died and left her some money and the COA went up again for the third and fourth years. My best guess is that we paid about $25,000 for four years at Harvard.

We are not poor, but at no time do I think that we ever made $150,000 in a year. Maybe it was our somewhat unusual circumstances, but what do you have to lose by applying (other than the application fee). The worst that could happen is that the financial aid actually offered is not good enough for your pocketbook. If you have had the appropriate conversation with your child, that shouldn't be a problem.

[Hanna]

After some quick math, I figured out that my parents paid for 86 years of private tuition for their four kids. 19 years from preschool through college for each of the four of us, plus 4 years of med and 6 of law. Yikes. They were paying at least one private school tuition every year from 1969 through 2002.

Granted, even when I graduated from law school in 2002, tuition was a lot cheaper in constant dollars than it is now, and it was a WHOLE lot cheaper in the 70s. But still.

[MiamiDAP]

^years of paying might not be as pushing as amout of $$ / year. Considering current Med. School tuition + books + living expances. For many it is around $75k/year over 4 years. It is by far not the same if you look back 20 years ago.

[jym626]

The amount spent per year has to be considered against the income earned back then too, Miami. Salaries then were lower than they are now.

[Hanna]

I mentioned this number to my dad, and he pointed out that for about six years, my mother's faculty position covered college tuition, so they were only paying for room, board, and books. So it's really more like 80 years.

In constant dollars, it's way less money than it would be if 4 kids were in school now. It's just an example at the far end of the values spectrum. Every family falls on a different spot.

[OperaDad]

Originally Posted by AlmaPater

If you have to pay full freight and you child is not looking to be POTUS, you are likely wasting your money. Better to choose a high quality state flagship honors program and use the money saved for something else. I have seen many cases where a diploma from a very selective school has been an expensive nonstarter.

One does need to consider what the kid will do with the degree. If the kid is going to be a beach bum, then even a high quality state flagship school is a waste of money. I'm guessing the problem lies with the kid being pushed by their parents. If the kid is an achiever, then their own drive will help them use the degree to their benefit. But, if the kid has to be pushed, as soon as the parents can push no more, then the degree will go to waste.

I know people who will have expended in the neighborhood of $1 million on total educational costs. Especially considering the time value of money, this is an absurd luxury in many cases.

To get to the $1 million mark, you must be talking about private schools from kindergarten (college, at the most expensive private is only 1/4 of that amount). If they have the money, a lot of parents will give their kids the best opportunities from the beginning. Unfortunately, a lot of parent's don't adjust their expectations for their kid's talents, abilities, and desires. If you live in a bad school district, most of the time your only option is to spend the first $100,000, or more, before you have any real indication. And even if the prospects were not top notch for the kid, would you not continue to spend through high school to give them a decent foundation for whatever they wanted to do in life?

[blossom]

oh please. There's a woman who works for me who spends more on dry cleaning in one year than I spend on my entire wardrobe. A young man in my department who recently got engaged and spent what I consider to be a ridiculous amount of money for an engagement ring. People in my neighborhood who are ripping out kitchens they put in 15 years ago (perfectly functional) because they look "dated" and spending unbelievable amounts of money for outdoor grills they'll use twice a year and commercial quality appliances which will be used to reheat pizza and takeout Thai.

What I consider ridiculous is nobody's business but my own. We were full freight payers for expensive schools and our kids took their responsibilities seriously. We were thrilled by the opportunities they got, and the new thinking and big ideas they were exposed to, and they've used their educations in phenomenal ways. Some to make "big bucks". Some to make a big difference in society. We've not looking for a financial return, although it's nice that they've all been financially independent within a few months of graduating from college.

Our spending was no more a luxury than buying a car which depreciates as you drive it off the lot. People will go into crazy debt to live in a house they can't afford or drive a car they can't afford- I spent my disposable income on college tuition and am happy to have been able to do so.

And my kitchen is wretched and my car is an aging Honda.

[twopence]

Blossom--I couldn't agree with you more. It's really all about where and when you want to spend your money. Frankly, private school tuition has motivated us to take on more responsibility and other titles when we might have coasted otherwise. Could my kid have gotten into a no. 1 or 2 grad program from state U? Yes, of course, but then getting access to labs and profs would have been that much more difficult at a large state U---not impossible, but more difficult.

As far as expense, you're correct. It's all about what you value---what's important to you. Nothing is more important to us than our kids' education except their health. We drive 44 year old and 10 year old cars! And our house is a shambles---but in the end, what really matters? Who said 'a good education is the reading of a lifetime?'

[jym626]

Totally agree, blossom and twopence.

A 44 yr old car?????? It is a vintage restored vehicle or an old clunker?

ETA--
As they say-- they can take away your car, job, your home.. but they cannot take away your education.

[Haystack]

The faculty at state flagships only work with the very top undergraduates on research. Quite frankly, it is not worth their time to work with less serious students, so they don't. If you are a top student at a research flagship, faculty mentors are readily available.

Now, at private research schools, every student is a top student. Shouldn't there then be more competition for faculty mentorship at a 'top' school and less easily obtained?