How the top Students are Learning to Cheat in Highschool

[austinareadad]

lmkh70,

My S's HS used project-based learning his freshman year, then began to go away from it his sophomore year, and now it is gone in his junior year. His freshman year, each five person group would usually have a couple of A students (according to past performance), a couple of B students, and one C student. A four person group would usually have one A student, two B students, and one C student. They were supposed to collaborate to produce a finished product that would receive a group grade. Then each student would be associated with some small individual part that would lead to an assigned individual grade. The student's grade would then be the average of the group grade and the individual grade.

It didn't take long for it to evolve into a system where the A students would do all the work, except for the small parts that would go into the individual grades of other students. It appeared to be intended to lead to the weaker students learning from and modeling their behavior after the stronger students, but it did not work that way. The weaker students became even less motivated and weaker and the stronger students worked even harder and became even stronger.

His sophomore year they only did limited group projects and they formed different groups -- usually four person groups made up of all A students, all B students, or all C students. Usually in the pre-AP and AP classes there would be a couple of groups of A students, a couple of groups of B students, and a couple of groups of C students, and most of the students felt they were competing against the other groups that were at the same level. This obviously led to complaints, as it appeared to create different tracks in the same classroom.

His junior year the group projects appear to be gone completely.

[choryphee]

>>When did teachers become sooooo lazy??

High school teachers: Right around the time when their jobs became dependent on the test scores achieved by their students.

College professors: Right around the time when students started complaining to the University President's Office, and threatening to sue the school, every time they got a bad grade, on the basis that the professor was 'unfair'. If all the students are taking the same test, and the tests are constructed in such a way that the professor has no room to make any judgments about whether a student answered correctly or not, then it's a lot less likely that the professor can be disciplined for 'unfairness'.

(And before you say that never happens: I work in a college. It happens all the time.)

[TutuTaxi]

^^^^^Having several versions of a multiple-choice exam where the placement of the questions have been rearranged and/or having the correct answer placed in a different order among the deflectors is easily accomplished. No one can scream “unfairness” it is the SAME test.

[geeps20]

This week as a freshman in college she had to do a presentation with a partner - guess who did all the work - put together the powerpoint etc. I told her some things never change!

well, not to sound cruel, but it sounds like your D has issues standing up for herself... It appears she has to work on not being taken advantage of..

[Consolation]

S was in a wonderful 5/6 multiage program where they used project-based learning, BUT most of the time each kid worked on his or her own project. Sometimes they collaborated, and S hated it for all of the reasons stated above. There was some of that in middle school, but it had largely disappeared by HS, thankfully.

[ecouter11]

I think this is sad, but logical. So much rides on doing well in school and succeeding. If you read the whole article, the culture in the school seem insane-posting marks and college admissions? Who does that? My old, very successful, many HYPSMC acceptances, very wealthy high school never did that. Before going nuts over the students, the culture of the school needs to change too. Anti-cheating measures are great, but the administration, students, parents, all need to think seriously about what they want and need.

And teachers are lazy-not just in giving tests, but often times useless busy work. Make assignments that are genuinely interesting and useful, make required classes fun and see what results you get. Provide more help for struggling students, limit APs and encourage a healthy lifestyle. Do all of this in conjunction with anti cheating measures and I’m sure there’ll be a much better result.

From a smart kid’s perspective, a ton of required classes are completely useless to what you want to in life and so the attitude becomes “ugh, lets jump this hoop so we can get into [insert Prestigious School here] and be happy and successful.” I won’t deny it- at least 95% of the people I know (including me) have said that at least once (my bane is foreign languages). In a school that has such a competitive student body, I think it’s critical for administrators to emphasize some sort of balance- be it by curbing APs and making ‘normal classes’ more interesting and fun for students or getting more counselors, something needs to be done. This mentality that “we need to get through this and do extremely well to be happy” destroys enjoyment of learning, curiosity and frankly, makes high school miserable. Since students are usually evaluated in the context of their school, admins could make this kind of change and no one would be the worse off for admissions.

Of course, I do not condoning cheating- but cheating is usually a symptom, not the disease itself.

[poetgrl]

cheating is usually a symptom, not the disease itself.

Yes.

I'm just trying to figure out if we have more cheating now than we used to have. (I don't recall my friends and I cheating, and we were the AP kids in our HS). And if this is just kind of the final result of the intense competition for the top colleges, which we did not have when I was in HS.

My kids aren't really gunners, school wise, so I don't think I fully "get" the level of pressure some of these academic types are feeling at this age, at all, and I wonder if this culture of cheating is infecting many of our more competitive schools like an ineradicable virus caused by an intolerable pressure to be perfect.

[dietz199]

No one got their own grades. No child was allowed to earn their own grades. So, if someone did poorly on their 1/3...everyone was given the low grade, regardless. Frequently, my daughter was matched with people who did not want to do their work.

Ah yes, the terror of the group project. More tears were shed, more parental involvement induced (OMG the tales I could tell about a particular Father and his manipulations and undermining of my D during a 'collaborative' science project) and more actual learning about the inherent inequality of the redistribution of grade wealth can not be found My S in particular was regularly matched with the star gazers of the class.

[MiamiDAP]

^Overlooked the fact that the more kid does, the more he learns. Actully, these type of students have to restrain themselves later on. In Med. School, for example, everybody wants to talk during group discussion. Everybody wants to cut in Anatomy Lab, observing is not as interesting. Many High Schoolers who are used to doing most (if not all) group work, lead group discussions in college, many others seek their help and they are getting ahead by providing help and learning material better this way. They also getting hand picked by profs for SI positions. This is not a bad thing to do everything for the entire group. It is a bad thing for the lazy ones who gave up their rights to learn to somebody else.

[latichever]

After he read the NY Times article about cheating at Stuyvesant, i asked my son, a sophomore, who is a top student, if he would be tempted to cheat if he were at that school.

He said, "No, I have integrity."

Good answer, but then I asked him what if all your cheatingm classmates looked like they would get into better colleges than you. He found that harder to answer.

I'd trust that he'd do the right thing anyway, but he appreciated the temptation.

I guess I'm glad he's not at that kind of a pressure cooker school.

[mini]

Learning to cheat is good preparation for life.

I never would have learned to cheat if I hadn't gone to school.

[ecouter11]

I'm just trying to figure out if we have more cheating now than we used to have. (I don't recall my friends and I cheating, and we were the AP kids in our HS). And if this is just kind of the final result of the intense competition for the top colleges, which we did not have when I was in HS.

My kids aren't really gunners, school wise, so I don't think I fully "get" the level of pressure some of these academic types are feeling at this age, at all, and I wonder if this culture of cheating is infecting many of our more competitive schools like an ineradicable virus caused by an intolerable pressure to be perfect.

I think more competition definitely forces people who would not normally cheat to take 'extreme measures'. I'm still in HS and no longer go to my competitive one due to unfortunate circumstances, but god, there is SO much pressure to do well.

Straight As, do sports, do time consuming clubs, win awards, get internships/research positions etc. etc. There's no time to go in and deeply ponder a book that you're reading for AP lang because you have a monster APUSH assignment to do till 3 AM. Ugh, and don't forget about those standardized tests and that committee you have to chair for a conference that's 3 weeks for now.

And this was a school in which there were only 30 kids gunning for the top and no class rank. That being said, even the "average" kids ended up with at least 4-6 APs by graduation- the most competitive kids had 14 or more.

Granted, most kids in the 'competitive' group did get into Ivies/top schools/BS MD programs or huge scholarships, so it ended up being worth it, but it's just a ton ton ton of pressure.

I, and many of my friends from that school routinely freak out and worry about failing and not meeting our goals. It's a real grind. However, there's not much cheating going on tests, at least because that school doesn't post marks and admissions for the public and b) people are usually put into interesting classes by 10/11. People do exchange HW, but no one really cares about that. Most HW is busy work and anyone dumb enough to copy an essay deserves a 0.

In someways, i like how my new school has a schedule that doesn't really allow for more than 4 APs a year. I have time to look into other things instead of working till 6 PM and going home to 5 hours of homework. If the kids were like the ones at my old school and the new school had more money/resources, it'd be really awesome.

[OHMomof2]

Group projects...who thinks those are a good idea, really? I've seen both sides of this coin with my kids.

S, now in college, when grouped with high achieving girls, found that they'd do everything and he'd get the nice grade along with them. Senior year he had a brilliant teacher...she put 4 slightly slacker boys together on a huge project and they all HAD to do the work. And they got an A on it.

D, now a soph, is in the "does it all" category for the less ambitious guys placed in her groups.

Anyone else feel like it seems to be the girls in these groups that do most of the work? Especially when the grade includes a nice looking presentation, electronic or poster board or whatever?

I'm glad group projects are few and far between at our HS.

[ucbalumnus]

Originally Posted by OHmomof2

Group projects...who thinks those are a good idea, really? I've seen both sides of this coin with my kids.

In theory, it gives students practice at what they will see in college and work.

In practice, the K-12 school environment will show a much greater variation in ability and motivation for a given project or subject than a college, graduate school, or work environment.

For example, the variation of ability and motivation in a high school history class (particularly a required one) compared to a college history class (which is taken as an elective, or especially a more advanced course taken by history majors). The high school class likely includes many slackers and others who are just not good or interested in history (and who would stay far away from history classes if they go to college), while the college class more likely includes mainly students who have some interest in the subject of the class.

In the work place, group projects are common, but (in theory anyway) people are assigned to them based on their presumed ability to contribute to the particular project.

[boysx3]

I just read through a thread on cheating in the High School forum here on CC--

I find the attitude of the high school students depressing.