The College Rankings Racket (New York Times)

[austinareadad]

^^^ My W thinks we are moving towards a situation where political boundaries are less and less important. So people would be able to move freely in the future and take advantage of whatever different environments have to offer them. It is critical to her that our S maintain some Chinese cultural heritage wherever he lives. Of course she also hopes that someday he marries a Chinese woman who maintains that cultural heritage, regardless of the woman's citizenship or residence. I would guess that many other Chinese people hope that their children maintain their cultural heritage regardless of where they live.

Certainly Chinese history is not the only history of note, and W understands that Europeans and many others share a deep appreciation of history, but Americans in particular seem wilfully ignorant of history.

[Hunt]

Well, I'm primarily referring to stripping their natural resources, cheap labor, etc. I just don't think we're free of guilt when it comes to thinking people in other countries are stupid and lazy and taking advantage of them.

And the British really did it to China, as in the opium wars.

[jym626]

I see your point, Hunt, as far as going to another location to access their resources, but it seems that it is more for a group gain (e.g. corporate) than a personal gain. The comparison of pursuing opportunities that are present makes sense, but the attitude that the well developed (as opposed to natural) academic, vocational, financial and other resources are here thanks to past generations, now being overseen by stupid, lazy people is hard to swallow.

[Hunt]

I don't want to get into politics, but the idea that America has "gone soft" has some traction domestically as well.

[jym626]

Agree that politics is not relevant to this discussion. And from what I am hearing, the belief system, to take advantage of the educational, vocational and financial opportunities in the US as described by austinareadad is at least a generation old.

[barrons]

European policy makers "should consult THE World University Rankings"

[epiphany]

PG said:

I can't imagine how frustrating that might be.

I have learned to suppress my frustration. (Exasperation is a better word. ) It no longer surprises me; just concerns me when the student has a 3.4 UW and W, middle scores, and very few activities. And then to watch the parent (happens often) berating the student publicly for that (when I gently convey the likely bad news). The parent seems to be "hearing this for the first time" (i.e., the likely outcome) and so vents frustration and disapproval onto the student.

Don't you ever tell them to look around?

LOL, This is a serious question from you to me, PG, knowing me as you do?

That if the goal is upper middle class financial security, that Harvard and a handful of other colleges don't even REMOTELY have the lock on that? That in any city in this country, the vast majority of people who "do well" financially (I don't mean multi millionaires, just comfortable enough to have a nice standard of living) went to a state university (if they went to college at all, which some might not have) and not an elite one?

First of all, they're importing Asian values and expectations (layering them) onto a different economic and cultural reality. Usually it's been less than 16 or 17 years they've been in this country -- typically about 12 or even 10-11. Given language barriers, they have often spent much more time insulated than exposed. And culture and language are quite linked. The more fluent the parents, the more likely there has been comprehended interface with the host culture.

Second, it's an emotional issue as much as practical. The only dishonesty I find in it is in the vast majority of the time it is NOT the student's "dream," it is the parent's "dream," a dream culturally imported.

What happens when you challenge their beliefs? What happens when you say, "I know you think anything below HYPSM means your child will be sweeping floors the rest of his life, but that simply is absolutely not true in America"?

That would be ineffective. What I do say, though, knowing they will not let go of "dreams," no matter how unrealistic, is to give them specific, recent, real-world examples of students I know who went to State Universities (not even the flagship), got fabulous opportunities there, applied themselves royally, got fab internship/job in that field locally, went on to the following actual U's: Harvard, Columbia, Princeton, Brown.

(As an aside, several years ago (CC archives) after a blistering Yale Early Round, one person joined the discussion to discuss her humble degree at humble Providence College (recently) followed by acceptance to Yale in her field. I don't mention CC to such people, haha, but I do mention 'small,private college' trajectory to Yale.)

So I ask them directly, "What do you think will happen to Stanford's/ H's/ Y's/ C's (etc.) graduate school in 5 years? are you concerned that the Ph.D. divisions will close within 5 years?" And I add, "Are you assuming that this student will finish his academic life with a 4-year degree?" They invariably admit No. It's just that they think there "is a better chance" of getting into an Elite grad school if you have an Elite undergrad degree.

[cptofthehouse]

"My W is an immigrant from China who has had the "Harvard or bust" attitude for our S (I've been trying to talk her out of that for years). At least from my knowledge of her and her perspectives, I don't believe the attitude is being fairly or accurately described here.

My W grew up with the belief that Americans are stupid and lazy people who have had the good fortune of being born into wealth. She also believed, along with a great many other people in her native country, that any intelligent Chinese person with a good work ethic who grew up in the US should easily rise to the top of the mediocre American pile. In addition, books authored by parents of Chinese students who were able to gain admission to Harvard and go on to have great success in life were quite popular in China. So the formula for success seemed pretty straightforward: Immigrate to the US, have a child, raise the child to have a good Chinese work ethic and ambition, apply to Harvard or maybe YPSM, get accepted, move on to a great career. If by some freak accident the child is not accepted into HYPSM, the back-up plan is for the child to go to the state university, have a decent career as an ordinary doctor or engineer, and then have children that can apply to HYPSM...

Her attitude may not be representative, but I would be surprised to find it were very far from the mark."

Ha, should talk to some older Japanese as to what they think of the Chinese! So much for old country perceptions.

Those who are intrepid enough to immigrate to another country and work very hard for their kids have every opportunity to enjoy the pinnacles of what that new country has to offer are very special people indeed and are not representative of the population as a whole.

THough the rankings may be a "racket", they do pay off in that they do bolster the reputations of the schools. However, as I said before, sticking Caltech up there as #1 one year on the USN pyaramid did not give them a lasting boost. It's more that the rankings reinforce what people already believe.

[epiphany]

I suspect that what complicates this mindset that Harvard (and a few other schools) are the only schools good enough is a sense (which I think is strong in many immigrant families) that hard work is what is rewarded. So, if Junior works hard enough, why shouldn't he get into Harvard? Won't Harvard care about how hard he studied, and how many hours he practiced the violin, and all the sacrifices he made? The answer, of course, is "Not really." But that's hard to take. People don't easily shed these kinds of cultural attitudes.

In other words, I suspect that when some of these parents are told that their kid may not have the credentials to get into the most selective schools, their first reaction is that the kid should work harder, study more, do more test prep, drop those useless fun ECs so he can practice his instrument more, etc.

The interesting thing is that what I have encountered is not so much this ^. The parents of the high-performing students are calmer and slightly more philosophical. Ironically, they're more amenable to having a slightly "balanced" list. (haha, that means 8 reaches instead of 10, btw.) The parents who are the most difficult to deal with are the parents of students with imperfect academic profiles. They push more for reaches than anyone else.

There is, yes, the underlying cultural belief that college admissions is a (moral) "reward." And I suppose you could say that the student with an imperfect profile has worked "even harder" (in many cases) than those with "perfect" profiles. But often not. Often those students have worked no less hard nor harder than better performers. Some students have chosen the more Americanized path of balance (lots of activities), which has affected their grades, because those are not the exceptional students who truly can "do everything."

Not every Chinese-American student is brilliant. Not every Indian-American student is brilliant. There is a great myth out there about this (which also feeds the "discrimination" assumption). It may also surprise some of you to learn that diagnosed and diagnosable Learning Disabilities (and at the moment I'm putting aside Aspergers and Autism) exist in some Asian students. It is more hidden, and much more an experience of shame, but I find it heartbreaking to encounter it -- only because of the disparity between family/community expectation and realistic student ability.

[Pizzagirl]

She could have had that back in her home city in China, which is today very vibrant economically. Her BIL and sister own a medium-sized business there and live in a luxury condo. She took the gamble to move to the US to hit it big and I think she was far from alone among Chinese immigrants in that regard.

Yes, but how can you live in the US for any period of time and not simply observe that wealth isn't really a function of HYPSM attendance? Like there aren't PLENTY of HYPSM grads who are working at middle management jobs right alongside not-elite-school grads? How can she not see what's right in front of her?

[Pizzagirl]

What I do say, though, knowing they will not let go of "dreams," no matter how unrealistic, is to give them specific, recent, real-world examples of students I know who went to State Universities (not even the flagship), got fabulous opportunities there, applied themselves royally, got fab internship/job in that field locally, went on to the following actual U's: Harvard, Columbia, Princeton, Brown.

Aren't you just deferring it, though? "Don't worry about not getting into HYPSM - you can get into HYPSM for grad school?" It still doesn't address the core cultural mistake, that only HYPSM are worth writing home about or provide opportunities.

What would happen (or has happened) when you have said to them -- "Let's just pick on Tufts vs Harvard. What opportunities exist at Harvard that don't exist for the most part at Tufts?"

It seems a very zero-sum view of the world - instead of recognizing that there are 30,000 opportunities at Harvard and 25,000 at Tufts (and any one student can't take advantage of more than 10), it's either "opportunity on" or "opportunity off."

[epiphany]

Aren't you just deferring it, though? "Don't worry about not getting into HYPSM - you can get into HYPSM for grad school?" It still doesn't address the core cultural mistake, that only HYPSM are worth writing home about or provide opportunities.

Yes, it's a core cultural [misunderstanding]. But they're not at the next step yet. They seriously believe, in dollars, that only HYPPSMCCBD (& they will grudgingly add the top LAC's) are "worth" it. It's that or the State flagship, if they live in such a State that can boast a meaningful correlation to the term. They literally believe that no other institutions are worth the sticker price.

What would happen (or has happened) when you have said to them -- "Let's just pick on Tufts vs Harvard. What opportunities exist at Harvard that don't exist for the most part at Tufts?"

That's being rational, PG. This is not a rational issue to them, as I've tried to explain. And they wouldn't be able to answer the question anyway. It's also not about opportunity to them; it's about reputation. (Even if they agreed with you about the opportunity part.)

It seems a very zero-sum view of the world - instead of recognizing that there are 30,000 opportunities at Harvard and 25,000 at Tufts (and any one student can't take advantage of more than 10), it's either "opportunity on" or "opportunity off."

It is a zero-sum view. Further, getting 10 rejections --because you were stubborn as opposed to being realistic-- is not a dream; it's a nightmare.

[xiggi]

"My W is an immigrant from China who has had the "Harvard or bust" attitude for our S (I've been trying to talk her out of that for years). At least from my knowledge of her and her perspectives, I don't believe the attitude is being fairly or accurately described here.

My W grew up with the belief that Americans are stupid and lazy people who have had the good fortune of being born into wealth. She also believed, along with a great many other people in her native country, that any intelligent Chinese person with a good work ethic who grew up in the US should easily rise to the top of the mediocre American pile. In addition, books authored by parents of Chinese students who were able to gain admission to Harvard and go on to have great success in life were quite popular in China. So the formula for success seemed pretty straightforward: Immigrate to the US, have a child, raise the child to have a good Chinese work ethic and ambition, apply to Harvard or maybe YPSM, get accepted, move on to a great career. If by some freak accident the child is not accepted into HYPSM, the back-up plan is for the child to go to the state university, have a decent career as an ordinary doctor or engineer, and then have children that can apply to HYPSM...

Her attitude may not be representative, but I would be surprised to find it were very far from the mark."

Well, it is hard to fault the Chinese for believing in a formula that ... actually worked for a long time and paid huge dividends in the form of statistically skewed admissions.

However, to be a tad more correct, one should add the "good Chinese work ethic and ambition" a good dosis of gamesmanship through a focus on maximizing the résumé with mostlly individual awards as opposed to group activities, as well as the exploiting to the maximum the desire or need for schools to extend their diversity via URMs. More math and sciences. More piano and violin and less marching band. More Suzuki torture than Little League. And it worked as a new generation of URM showed up with better looking stats than the typical minorities.

Today's result is that the early adopters of the "admission game" left a wide open trail for many followers to emulate, all the way to clogging that trail. Coupled with admissions officers having become wiser to detect the padding and excessive focus on scores --or wiser about the "extraordinary" ways some of those scores can be obtained-- the diminishing yield of the game is now raising claims of discrimination. In the meantime, it is hard to overlook that the Asian critical mass has been built, and that the people who saw the early result of the formula believe it still work, or look at it with both nostalgia and a loud translated "Gotcha!"

[epiphany]

but how can you live in the US for any period of time and not simply observe that wealth isn't really a function of HYPSM attendance?

Define "period of time." As I mentioned earlier, sometimes this is 10 years (sometimes even less). My own last 10 years have pretty much flown by. If I were dogged about researching something, I would have had to make concerted efforts during those 10 years, to carve away time just for research into undergrad/grad school in a foreign country, and all the various exigencies surrounding that. In the meantime, I'm trying to adjust to the language, the politics, the economics, the housing, and merely earning a living (all of which affects my available time). If I didn't anticipate ahead of time the need for research, I might not engage in it consistently or objectively.

[MiamiDAP]

"Not every Chinese-American student is brilliant"
-But most are definitely very hard working. Brilliant does not cut it anyway, but look at overrepresentation in every top programs, starting with Middle School. Brilliancy is way overrated. Just tell your kid when she is 5 to do all homework assignments, do them correctly and turn them on time, it will do, guaranteed straight As, no brilliance required, not even Chinese heritage is needed.