Educational Consultant sued

[Pizzagirl]

"to mention that the reputation hit they'll take back in HK/China is going to be far worse considering how even suspicions of cheating in university admissions/courses tends to generate outrage...especially if the malefactor is a wealthy businessman. "

Oh god, not the reputation hit!!! Nothing is more important -- NOTHING -- than what other people think of you! Indeed, that's the Very Meaning and Purpose of Life. Amass credentials to impress other people, and then you die.

[Pizzagirl]

"In short, they'd probably be more equivalent to your stereotypical US legacy/developmental admit whose academic record/standardized scores are on the extreme low-end of a given elite college's admit pool and the wealth/connections to go with it."

Except in the US, most people don't spend their days being "outraged" at a legacy/developmental admit being admitted. They shrug and move on with their lives. That's normal, not all this "outrage" you constantly describe.

[cobrat]

Originally Posted by Pizzagirl

Oh god, not the reputation hit!!! Nothing is more important -- NOTHING -- than what other people think of you! Indeed, that's the Very Meaning and Purpose of Life. Amass credentials to impress other people, and then you die.

Unfortunately, where one gets their college degrees does dictate what jobs and even what social circles one gains access to for the most part to a far greater degree than here in the US in societies...like the ones the Chows live.

If you had more awareness and the ability to step out of your Midwest suburban upper-middle class bubble, you'd be aware that all your talk of "aspiring to eliteness is not elite" rhetoric is inapplicable in many cultures where one's alum affiliation does determine whether someone enters their respective elites...or even has a nice upper-middle class job or not.

And it is applicable in this case as the story in the OP is about a family who is based in one of those societies and whose kids may not only intend to return after schooling, but also maintain social networks within such a society.

It's one thing to make such criticism of immigrants to the US as our society doesn't emphasize credentials and elite schools for career/social access/advancement to nearly the same extent.

However, that's not applicable to this discussion considering the story's situation in the OP.

[xiggi]

>>>If you had more awareness and the ability to step out of your Midwest suburban upper-middle class bubble<<<

Say what?

[cbreeze]

Xiggi, do you have a job other than posting your anti-Asian bias here?
All your time and resources devoted to googling to support your arguments to put down certain people.

Yeah, yeah, I know Sea Breeze will chime in.

And you are right, I am tracking you.

[jym626]

I believe that line quoted above (the crack about the midwest bubble) was directed to PG

[Pizzagirl]

Unfortunately, where one gets their college degrees does dictate what jobs and even what social circles one gains access to for the most part to a far greater degree than here in the US in societies...like the ones the Chows live.

Well, and since I live here in the US, I have the great freedom to be able to look down on that and be decidedly unimpressed with the morals / values / norms of such societies. Sucks to be them, I suppose. Sucks even more that they're still so desperate for that validation even when they already HAVE (by most people's standards) a great amount of wealth. You know, when you have that kind of wealth, you pretty much CAN tell other people to go take a hike as they don't need to "approve of" or "be impressed" by where your kids go to school. Too bad they have no sense of self outside of what-other-people-might-think-of-me.

[Pizzagirl]

If you had more awareness and the ability to step out of your Midwest suburban upper-middle class bubble, you'd be aware that all your talk of "aspiring to eliteness is not elite" rhetoric is inapplicable in many cultures where one's alum affiliation does determine whether someone enters their respective elites...or even has a nice upper-middle class job or not.

I am AWARE of it, cobrat. I am UNIMPRESSED by it and don't see why I have to show any level of admiration or support for it.

I'm also aware that women in Saudi Arabia can't vote or drive cars and that's cultural too, having traveled there and worn a burka -- that doesn't mean I have to be impressed by it. I'm not afraid to say that certain aspects of many cultures are unimpressive. The Jersey Shore / Snooki culture in the US is unimpressive. So is the "Go to Harvard or don't bother" attitude of many East Asian cultures. Neither one are anything to write home about, and I don't see why I need to pretend that they are.

[cobrat]

^ ^

PG,

Unlike in the US, bragging about/excessively showing off one's wealth is considered a sign one "was raised in a barn" per your words and has no propriety and class among many Chinese/East Asian elite...especially the old-school folks. The ones who do are regarded by them in the same ways many Americans/Jersey folks are aghast at Snooki and the Jersey Shore show.

On the other hand, demonstrating high academic achievement and using one's intellect...especially in the spirit of public service has long been highly prized in Chinese/Confucian oriented societies.

What the Chows are doing is the modern equivalent of what wealthy merchants during the Imperial Chinese era(Mostly late Ming - Qing dynasties) who didn't have what it takes/didn't want to bother with preparing/passing Imperial Civil Service Exams to gain entry into the respectable elite.

Buying an "honorary degree" which provided scraps of that "scholar-gentry" respectability...but actual scholar-gentry elite who actually earned their degrees disdained as "a remedial degree for those with more money than intellectual acumen/sense". Moreover, unless there's a severe shortage of degree holders and a national disaster*...such a degree isn't going to command the level of respect an actual earned degree would among those who mattered.

* i.e. The Taiping Rebellion in the mid-19th century which ravaged much of China and almost toppled the last dynasty decades before their ultimate collapse.

Well, and since I live here in the US, I have the great freedom to be able to look down on that and be decidedly unimpressed with the morals / values / norms of such societies.

What that's true, that's irrelevant in the context of the OP's story.

[oldfort]

^^^How are all of these Chinese stories have to to do with OP or this thread?

Chows were no different than many wealthy Americans or Chinese. They could afford it and they thought they would just buy it. They didn't get what they wanted, so they are suing - I think that's very American. Pure and simple.

What's all that nonsense about Confucius way, merchants vs scholars...sheesh.

[xiggi]

Cbreeze, aren't you tired of tracking me to express your disapproval of my posts every time there is a discussion that does not place CERTAIN Asians in a positive light.

You are correct that I tend to find sources to support my arguments. I prefer that over the alternative to rely on ad hominems and personal attacks. There is a sure way to make my arguments look foolish, namely find evidence that directly contradicts me and the facts I used to support my opinion.

As I wrote in an earlier reply, I DO NOT create the news nor distort the stories. If you find educated opinions supported by facts offensive, so be it. I am entitled to my opinion, and so do you. If you think that the stories of endemic cheating in Asia are false and only spread by biased observers, so be it.

For the record, indicting cheaters only reflects on the cheaters, not on an entire population. I thought that precise facts make that distinction clear. In this case, Chow is Chow, and does not represent all rich dentists or jewelers in Asia.

[GMTplus7]

oldfort,

What makes the Chows stand out from wealthy Americans who try to buy their way in, is that the Chows claim that they didn't know how the college admissions process worked, which is total BS.

This family had their boys in U.S. college preparatory boarding schools, and at least one of the boys attended a U.S. junior boarding school before the high school boarding school. These parents were probably better informed about the U.S. college admissions process than most U.S. parents.

[oldfort]

GMTplus7 - agreed. I was just saying that their behavior was not very different than many wealthy Americans, hence I didn't know why we needed a Chinese culture lesson. I was not commenting on their reason for the lawsuit.

[Pizzagirl]

The ones who do are regarded by them in the same ways many Americans/Jersey folks are aghast at Snooki and the Jersey Shore show.

But this is where you continue to overstate the importance of what-others-think. Few people in the US are "aghast" at Snooki / Jersey Shore. They think it's tacky; ok, fine, but then they move on with their day, figuring that their tackiness will ultimately catch up with them. For someone who keeps telling me to step out of upper-middle-class suburbia, I don't think you have fully internalized the concept of live-and-let-live where most people simply don't spend their time being "aghast" at other people's life choices.

Whether it's certain educated folks in China being aghast at the Chows, or people at Stuyvesant aghast at someone who would choose Reed over HYP, or whatever -- people just don't care as much about other people as you seem to think they do.

[mythmom]

I think more is to be gained by empathizing with each other than calling each other names. Even a middle class life style is a luxury to most of the world.

I have a PhD ad earn a normal salary for my job in academia. I don't notice this buying me respect in American society, though that is not why I did it, of course. I am always being told my writing is too erudite for current publishing standards.

My kids both attended excellent schools and this makes both of them overqualified for most of the jobs that are hiring so they are in grad school.

Cultures do differ. And here in the East Coast Harvard is still the gold standard, as it apparently is in other parts of the world.

It makes no sense to argue about whether or not it should be this way.

Neither party in this case comes off scott free, though the Chows appear to be less manipulative, even if they are high handed.

If there was fraud and embezzlement and their money was "appropriated" and not invested, I have sympathy with their attempt to recover the money. It is certainly not true that Harvard requires a Caucasian middleman to handle development funds. Of course I have no way of knowing if this allegation is true. If they are suing because their kids weren't accepted at Harvard, that's a different story. Then my sympathy wanes.