French president pushing homework ban as part of ed reforms

[TheGFG]

Redeye41, according to another report on this topic, 2/3 of the French people oppose this initiative.

UpperValley's post is right on because our own country is already starting to move in this direction. For example, the rationale behind President Obama's proposal for year-long school is that poor and disadvantaged children lose too much academic ground over the summer--much more than their more affluent peers. Keeping everyone in school all year "levels the playing field," as he's so fond of saying. So is the French President now going to forbid involved French parents from supplementing their children's education in the home, ie. by giving their own version of homework to their children?

These social redistributive philosophies are starting to infect our local public school to an alarming degree. Certain trends, like the trophies-for-everyone/we must build self-esteem mentality is one symptom. The new one I'm seeing is akin to Obama's "they didn't build that" concept--that when children succeed, the credit goes mostly to some nebulous community or social web which has supported them and made it possible. When they fail, it's also someone else's fault.

My D recently accomplished something notable at her middle school. The teacher was very quick to downplay her success by suggesting to her that while she did well, it was because she's blessed to have a ___________ (fill in the blank with the activity name, for ex. music, sports, art) family. The implication was that she benefited from an advantage in this area because of her family, or perhaps there was some genetic skill transfer. She was confused and said, "But I don't really have a ______ family," because neither DH nor I currently participate nor have ever done this EC, and her older siblings are 6 and 10 years older, don't live at home, and have not assisted her in any way. In fact, D spent many lonely hours practicing all by herself. Thus, the awards given for this EC went to the children who weren't as good, but in the minds of the teacher seemed to be trying harder. But it's like what Nadia Comanechi commented about her Olympic performance--that she made it look easy because of all the hours of practice.

[TheGFG]

PS--I told this story to my older D, and she rightly pointed out 3 genetic traits her sister has that make her EC more difficult for her than for others.

So will the school start giving the chorus accompanist job to the student pianist who's not quite as skilled but who's at a disadvantage due to short, stubby fingers? Will they subtract algebra test points from the student whose father is a math professor at the local flagship and might have helped with his homework? Will they demote from the position of cheerleading captain the girl whose mother was also a cheerleader, in favor of the girl whose mother just played field hockey?

The school can neither control nor compensate for social inequities and will only make a huge mess trying. One reason they will make a mess is that we humans are not omniscient nor omnipresent, and are also not supremely wise. We can't actually walk a mile in someone else's shoes, yet without doing that we can't make accurate assessments of advantage or disadvantage. We also can't always distinguish what is poor performance resulting from legitimate disadvantage from the poor performance resulting from lack of effort or motivation--factors over which people do have control.

[HarvestMoon1]

momof3greatgirls, again it sounds to me like lax discipline enforcement at the school, not an IEP issue. As you are well aware, an IEP does not give you "license" for anything other than academic accommodation.

[TheGFG]

HarvestMoom1--My D had an IEP for 10 ten years. Some children have behavior plans as part of their accommodations--BIP's I think they're called. These don't give license to disruptive or violent behavior, and actually seek to reform it through positive reinforcement and a system of consequences. But surely you can understand why school staff would be more lenient if a child with autism hit another child, versus if a neurotypical child hit another child? My friend's special education S hits staff and classmates practically every day, and has never been expelled. Rather, he gets assigned aides who have training in physical restraint.

[HarvestMoon1]

^^^
Certainly would understand some leniency if a child with autism or a similar disability hit a child. But these issues must be addressed and resolved, and in the vast majority of cases they are. But the kind of sustained hitting (blood was mentioned), that a previous poster alluded to, leads me to conclude that there is a problem with the manner in which the school is addressing these issues. The problem does not lie with the IEP.

[Pizzagirl]

Moreover, there's a different cultural mindset such that there's a reverse of the common US assumption that private colleges are assumed to be better. In many foreign countries...especially those in East Asia, it's the public universities that are assumed to be better academically and private ones stigmatized because the latter often have the stigma we'd often reserve for the worst for-profit private colleges.

Why should those of us in the US care what types of universities "have stigma" or don't in Asia? I realize we're all supposed to care Passionately about What People in East Asia think about public colleges and private colleges and college A and college B and the Ivy League and non-HYPSM and this high school and that high school, but tell me again why I should care?

[cobrat]

Upon placing this story on my FB feed, one HS classmate whose mother is from Trinidad stated the following which sums up reactions among most Americans I've known...especially recent immigrants:

"There's no way in hell my mother would ever believe I had no homework from school."

Originally Posted by Pizzagirl

Why should those of us in the US care what types of universities "have stigma" or don't in Asia? I realize we're all supposed to care Passionately about What People in East Asia think about public colleges and private colleges and college A and college B and the Ivy League and non-HYPSM and this high school and that high school, but tell me again why I should care?

This was in reply to Xiggi's prior posts making insinuations about how foreign systems, especially East Asian ones which set higher academic standards/expectations encourage corruption when its corruptibility actually so exceedingly low most corrupt officials/wealthy businesspeople who don't want their kids subjected to such standards overwhelmingly opt to send their kids to private US colleges as their admission systems is flexible and more amenable to political/social/monetary influence(i.e. legacy/developmental admits, current preferences for full-pay international undergrads, etc)*.

Much easier to accomplish without the risk of incurring not only severe culturally driven outrage, but also serious criminal penalties for corrupt activities. It's also a lot less work/aggravation in comparison.


* Something which many non-US cultures would consider a form of corruption in itself.

[Lost in translat]

I haven't read all the posts, but as a French teacher, I'd just like to clarify a few things. President Hollande is ONLY talking about elementary school (5 years in France rather than 6 in the US). The idea is to shorten the school day by one hour so that kids who don't have parents able or willing to help/supervise homework can do it under the teacher's supervision. The problem he is trying to address is the 50% (more, in the inner cities) of kids who start middle school with very subpar reading skills. Curiously, children from poor/immigrant families are lazy or stupid, whereas those from well-to-do families are dyslexic or suffer from ADD.

[Pizzagirl]

This was in reply to Xiggi's prior posts making insinuations about how foreign systems, especially East Asian ones which set higher academic standards/expectations encourage corruption when its corruptibility actually so exceedingly low most corrupt officials/wealthy businesspeople who don't want their kids subjected to such standards overwhelmingly opt to send their kids to private US colleges as their admission systems is flexible and more amenable to political/social/monetary influence(i.e. legacy/developmental admits, current preferences for full-pay international undergrads, etc)*.

It seems rather a no-brainer that of course a system or subculture in which It's Of Such Utmost Importance to Attend Only One of Handful of Schools To Be Regarded as Worthwhile will breed more corruption than a system in which There Are Some Schools That Are Better Than Others But Nothing Precludes You From Becoming Successful From Any School. That seems a blinding flash of the obvious.

[cromette]

Lost in translat: ....well. That's different then.

Thanks so much for the clarification!

[JenCook]

I understand the logic behind getting rid of timed, multiple choice exams, since they don't always do the best job at measuring actual knowledge or attainment. But homework is actually where students can learn the most, provided they offer kids a chance to practice relevant principles and comprehension. Quantity is probably the more relevant question for educators rather than whether or not homework is useful.

The fact that children have differing support at home is more an issue of ensuring that they have access to tutoring and other supplementary resources. Eliminating homework altogether is just a way of teaching to the lowest-common-denominator of students rather than giving at-risk students the help they need to succeed when parental intervention is lacking.

[jackeboy]

That's not gonna help anything. Kids who don't have invested parents aren't going to suddenly do better because they don't have homework. Even without homework kids still have differences in what kinds of books and other resources they have access to at home. Idk what elementary school is like in France, but here in the US we have some hw but I still think it's way too easy. Seriously I feel like I could've learned like 3 times as much in elementary school as I did had I ever been challenged at all. I mostly just learned how to be really lazy and got the idea from an early age that school requires no real effort, which comes back to bite you later on when it actually does. I think this new initiative will just allow kids to coast through school and learn zero self discipline rather than actually helping. It's my theory that if kids are challenged some in elementary school they will learn to try harder from an early age and later on it will come more naturally. Just my 2 cents.

[redeye41]

Just to clarify, I didn't label him a Socialist. He ran as a Socialist with a Socialist platform.

[Lost in translat]

What's the point in giving homework if the kid can't do it? In France, elementary homework is learning by heart multiplication tables, verb conjugations, poems and history dates, preparing spelling tests and maths tests. When parents can't read or speak French, don't you find it more logical to change HOMEwork into SCHOOLwork? I can't see how this is going to "learn zero discipline". A child from a privileged background will always have more opportunities at home, even in socialist France.
One of my kids went to a state elementary school with virtually no homework. She would play or read and relax when she got home. The other one went to a strict private with a lot more homework than I think you should give a seven or eight-year old. As a result, we spent all evening trying to help her get it done, and of course the more exhausted and stressed she became, the worse it got. Music lessons went down the drain as she never had any time to practice, and the evenings were sheer hell for everyone.
Of course this is an extreme example, but I don't believe you prepare for Harvard doing 3rd grade homework. On the contrary, a kid who goes to school every morning without dreading public humiliation because he didn't/couldn't do his homework, is far more likely to succeed.
PS: if any of you know of kids who went to a lycée français, they will tell you that the French system is far tougher than the average American one, and with tons more homework

[Bay]

I've posted this before, but my S attended a private elementary school that did not allow homework until 4th grade, and then it was limited to 1/2 hour per night, increasing to 1 1/2 hours per night, max in 8th grade. Teachers worked together to meet these goals. Parents were specifically instructed NOT to help their kids with their homework, as reviewing mistakes made on homework was how the teachers learned whether they were properly teaching the concepts. Teachers were responsible for spending extra time (recess, lunch and after school) with students who didn't understand the work. In other words, teachers were responsible for teaching the students. Homework was not graded, other than as to completeness. Students who did not complete homework with at least some indication of effort, were required to stay after school to do it. This seemed to work very well, and I don't see why it couldn't work in public schools, save for union rules that prevent it.