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Old 10-19-2012, 12:14 PM   #31
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You know, this hasn't turned out to be a problem. Prosecutors have wide discretion regarding whether to charge or not, and they know they have to win cases beyond reasonable doubt. They can charge with forcible rape, rape, violent sexual assault, sexual assault, assault and battery, and a whole array of misdemeanors. These hypotheticals don't turn out to have much life in them, and the vast majority of cases are pled down.

Last edited by mini; 10-19-2012 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:16 PM   #32
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^^This....and then we expect an administrative group not trained in legal or police work to ascertain guilt...I'd still counsel a girl (or a boy to protect his right from false accusation) to call the police before I'd tell either a girl or a boy to "go to the college administration."

The Williams policy is interesting. If one or the other party doesn't want to take it to the police that goes to the heart of filing a credible complaint and I can understand why a college might have a policy or simply asking both parties to leave.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:23 PM   #33
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MOTB--I think that is a great idea. Counsel all males and females who have sex while both are drunk to go to the police asap and make a report.

At Williams I guess making that police report is an admission that the reporting person ("I was drunk") has engaged in one half of a conduct violation.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:25 PM   #34
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The college does not have to ascertain guilt or innocence of a particular charge. They only have to decide whether a student's continued presence is conducive to the life of the institution, and if so, what sanctions might be appropriate.

The prosecutor, on the other hand, has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. It is more likely that the local police/prosecutor will drop a charge, or fail to investigate, or accept a plea down than the college will. If you take a place like my alma mater (Williams) where there were 41 women raped (some more than once - and using the definition found in Massachusetts law) and several men as well, and hundreds of sexual assaults, the police department would be overwhelmed, and I expect even fewer women would experience justice than those satisfied by the four male students expelled.

http://president.williams.edu/letter...t-at-williams/
http://williamsrecord.com/2012/02/22...exual-assault/
http://wso.williams.edu/orgs/peerh/sexualassault.html

Last edited by mini; 10-19-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:31 PM   #35
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M'S Mom - very good point, when you state:

"(I have a son by the way and have made a point of talking to him about this. I want him to understand that not only does 'no mean no' but sometimes 'yes' doesn't mean 'yes' either.)"
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:55 PM   #36
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Re legal definitions of alcohol and consent: perhaps people now should be administering breathalyzer tests to their potential sexual partners, as well as HIV and STD tests.

And, of course, a person--male or female--could report that they were drunk the next day, and there would be no means of determining whether they were drunk the night before, or HOW drunk they were the night before.

I would say that the general response would be that making a rape charge is so serious and so unpleasant that it is highly unlikely that someone would do so unless it were true. The second part of that is that there are far more unreported rapes than false accusations. Both of these things seem to be true, but of course that is small comfort if you are the unlucky exception to the rule.

IMHO, what everyone should be focusing on is fostering the kind of innate respect for other humans that would make sexual assault unthinkable. That apparently already holds most people in check.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:25 PM   #37
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Doinschool: “why is the boy expected to be responsible but not the girl? And why does the school get to act as judge and jury?”

Had she physically or sexually assaulted him, and he was drunk and unable to consent, than she would be responsible. As it turns out, in very few cases, is it the woman who is sexually assaulting a man – but not impossible.

And the school makes the decision because the school gets to decide who stays enrolled and who is expelled or suspended. This isn’t a jail sentence. If this had been reported to the police, there would indeed be the full legal investigation with possibly a trial. This young man decided he’d rather not go that route.

And I don't like Williams policy because any girl who has had even a single drink, is automatically going to be deemed guilty of complicity in her own rape. It's just another step towards suggesting that she's slut who had it coming. That seems perverse. The fact that someone has had too much too drink doesn't mean that they should share in the blame if they are raped.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:29 PM   #38
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Quote:
everyone should be focusing on is fostering the kind of innate respect for other humans that would make sexual assault unthinkable. That apparently already holds most people in check.
I surely agree. But, the problem is that alcohol clouds or destroys the "thinking." In cases where both are drunk both aren't thinking straight.

Under the Williams discipline policy all parents and all students know up front that drunk sex can get that student booted. Since alcohol is present in a hugh percentage of college sexual encounters and accounts for unsafe sex and morning after remorse the Williams focus is spot on.

As mini noted, the Williams policy allows for a determination:

Quote:
whether a student's continued presence is conducive to the life of the institution
A student who gets wasted and has sex with a wasted partner may not be a student that betters the overall college experience. On CC we constantly have threads on sexiling, drunk roommates, dorm disturbances etc. Even if the mutual incapacity takes the crime of sexual assault off the table, Williams may be doing the school and other students a favor to get rid of the student conduct violator(s).
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:41 PM   #39
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"A student who gets wasted and has sex with a wasted partner may not be a student that betters the overall college experience."

I wonder what percentage of the student population this covers.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:46 PM   #40
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Ignoring the horror, it's beatifully written.

At this point, "the guy defending himself" with his side of the story does not count. At all. This amount of emotional trauma does not happen when a female misunderstands a consensual experience.

When I was in college (RPI, they should be named), my roommate was arrested. He was going to a party at the football fraternity, pulled up in his car, and saw a girl with no pants crying on their front lawn. She had been raped 11 times inside the fraternity and twice outside. He offered to help her, went in and found her pants and underwear, and offered to call the police. She just wanted to be driven home.

He was arrested for "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" for having a 15 year old girl in his car after 11 pm. No one else was charged.

These types of administration coverups have been pervasive. And shame on the rape counselor if it is even half true.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:47 PM   #41
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Unfortunately, probably a substantial percentage. But, how does that change the fact that the conduct is not beneficial for the school or, according to the stats, for the students who contact STDs or get pregnant?
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:03 PM   #42
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I would love to know how many students have been disciplined severely under Williams' "mutually incapacitated sexual intercourse policy". I applaud the idea behind it completely. It's a mistake for anyone to have sex while he or she is drunk, especially with a drunk partner. However, I think that's a mistake that lots and lots (and lots and lots) of people make, especially when they are 18-22 and in college.

I know the Williams of today is not exactly like the Williams of my youth. But at the Williams of my youth, if they had suspended everyone who engaged in mutually incapacitated sexual intercourse there, it would have been a very lonely, quiet place.

I am suspicious of rules, however well-intentioned, that are basically there to be enforced selectively.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:15 PM   #43
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I found this story even more heartbreaking given the fact that Angie apparently had no family to look to for support and guidance. The unpleasant thought crossed my mind that perhaps that might have had something to do with the way she was treated by the Amherst counselor. Apparently, they felt totally in control of this young woman and her future.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:22 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnetron
At this point, "the guy defending himself" with his side of the story does not count. At all. This amount of emotional trauma does not happen when a female misunderstands a consensual experience.
I'm sorry, but ... WHAT? There is a possibility, however slight, that the young woman fabricated the whole story. There is a possibility, however slight, that she exaggerated some aspects of it. I am not saying she did fabricate or exaggerate anything. And I am not saying I am not sympathetic to her. What I am saying, however, is that there is another side to this story. That's not arguable; there were two people involved, not just one. And what I am saying is that I do not have enough facts to declare that I am certain of what actually happened in this case. More than this, I am stunned that anyone would presume to say he or she is certain about what happened based on the very limited information available. This isn't a question of blaming the victim. It is a question of using critical thinking skills, logic and reason rather than one's gut to make judgments about a situation where so much is at stake for all parties involved.

And with regard to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvestMoon1
The unpleasant thought crossed my mind that perhaps that might have had something to do with the way she was treated by the Amherst counselor.
All we have as evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the school administration is what this young woman wrote in the school newspaper. There is the possibility that counseling professionals (even if they fumbled in significant ways) did the right thing by seeing that this young woman was hospitalized in a psychiatric ward. Whatever the facts of the case, she could have been seriously mentally ill before and after the incident.

Last edited by absweetmarie; 10-19-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:36 PM   #45
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That was my reaction as well, absweetmarie. Getting someone to a psychiatric ward is evidence of caring and responsibility -- and an admission that the person requires a level of professional help beyond "there, there, dear, here's a tissue, I'm sure it will be all right." Not that it's pleasant to go to a psychiatric ward, but imagine the repercussions if they hadn't done so and this young lady had injured / harmed herself physically.
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