Should PUBLIC univs redistribute tuition revenue to fund FA for low income students?

[GMTplus7]

I'd rather the system be advantageous just for those who need it.

you mean kinda like: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

[MSNDIS]

@SteveMA (and anyone else who was offended by my resentment at having to pay extra tuition so I can help pay someone else's college tuition). First of all, I have to wonder how many of you are on the receiving end and are not paying a few thousand extra dollars a year to help out someone less fortunate than you are. If you are on the receiving end, imagine being told that in order to attend college you have to pay a $500 yearly "fee" so those less fortunate than you are able to have the cost of their books subsidized. Would it bother you that you had to find that "extra" money somewhere?

I do give to charity but I prefer to be able to pick and choose the charities I give to--I don't want to be forced to be charitable when it comes to college tuition (other than what I pay in taxes for our public universities). In my opinion, it is equivalent to a special tax for those who don't qualify for financial aid.

Here is the reason I made that statement in the first place. My friend's sister's husband is a dentist. They have a HUGE house, their kids of driving age were given NEW cars, and they go on spectacular vacations. Their oldest daughter qualifies for a Pell Grant. Why? Because they make their taxes look like they barely bring in any money from the dental practice. I'm sure they aren't the only people doing this.

Also, FAFSA takes your savings into consideration so a family that has scrimped and saved has to list the amount of money they have in the bank and in investments. That counts against us when it comes to financial aid (and we don't even have much invested or in savings). In order to pay for our kids' education, we don't have any new technology (no flat panel TVs or any iPods, iPads or iPhones--in fact our phones are almost three years old and don't connect to the Internet), our cars are over 10 years old and we haven't gone on vacation in over five years. We rarely go out to eat and even less frequently waste money on Starbucks. I'm having to limit the colleges my younger daughter is applying to because we can't afford the application fees and score reporting fees for reach schools.

It is our choice to pay our kids' college expenses so our kids can hopefully enter the working world after college with no debt. I don't know if we'll make it but that is our goal. Next year both our kids will be in college and I really don't think we'll be able to pay for both. They both have jobs but don't make enough to pay their own way through college or even make much of a dent in the tuition. We're hoping the younger one gets some great merit scholarships. If not, she'll be forced to wait a year to go to college or possibly start out at a community college (we paid $500 for ONE CC class for her this past summer so community colleges are no longer affordable either). If she sits out a year I'm worried she will not go to college at all.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter but I can barely afford to pay my oldest daughter's tuition and this economy hasn't helped. My salary has decreased 3% and my husband's has decreased about $400 a WEEK. In addition, we both pay more now for our health insurance and my husband's company is no longer contributing to his retirement so we eventually need to save more to make up for the lack of his retirement. I'm at the financial breaking point and making me pay extra tuition to help someone else out is NOT my idea of PUBLIC education. At a private university (which we cannot afford), I don't have a problem with it.

So, I apologize for anyone I may have offended but I honestly cannot afford to help pay for others' college tuition.

[redeye41]

It's also not fair to be the kid taking out loans to pay for some one else to go to college when you have to pay for it yourself. Many parents on CC will help pay for their kids education, but in the general public many will not or can not, no matter what the reason. A kid could be the son of a millionaire and still be given no money for college. Is it fair the kid has parents that won't pay?

When I was an undergrad my parents had a lot of bills, and no matter where they came from they had little money to give me for school. So I worked two jobs while going to school, taking out loans, while my roommate was on full financial aid. Fair? My roommate partied while I worked and studied. I was not my parents, was over 18, yet was given no aid.

[sewhappy]

I think FA just serves to drive up the cost of college. The ready availability of student loans does, too. Many private colleges and certainly virtually all public universities NEVER really reduce their expenditures and cost structure. They siphon funds by ramping up tuition, then creating a labyrinthine system in which, indeed, a whole lot of income redistribution goes on -- to pay the way of the relatively few on FA but mostly to fund themselves. Same for the loans.

If we pulled all that out from under them, the costs of college attendance would go way, way down.

But won't happen.

I'm really hopeful the internet-based remote learning model takes hold for higher education. Wish it had come along in time for my kids.

I think the entire model of college education in this country makes absolutely no sense.

[Olipond]

@MSDNIS:

I understand where you are coming from. We have a friend, he is first in his class, high stats etc., and he wants to go to Cornell. The problem is his parents are both remarried, and so, financially, ALL FOUR salaries count against his assistance at a 'need met' school. Those who have scrimped and saved for college, and lived responsible, middle class lives, get burned in the college process.
However, please note that some private schools will be a better deal for you than a state school. Do not assume that you will be liable for the 'sticker price' of Private School A or B. ALSO, there are a few state universities which are FREE for high performing students. We had a wonderful experience with the application process to Alabama (Honors College), and I believe LSU, Mississippi State and Pittsburgh have similar deals. A few of the students at the top of my D's class turned down Notre Dame and Cornell, because they got a better deal at Pittsburg. (As in FULL SCHOLARSHIP)
If you have a child who is at the top of their class, super overachiever etc, there ARE great deals out there, you just have to find them. Your state institution may not be the best way to go.

[zobroward]

no it is not fair but, such is life.
it is not fair I come home from work way after it is dark out and have to stop at the supermarket and wait in line behind people with expensive I phone's , professional done nails ....who pay with food stamps and WIC checks. I think hey I support these folks , maybe I should be able to get ahead of them in line or maybe I should be able to pay less tax and keep more of my own money , so I can work a couple hours less a day. but, it is not how as of 2012 our society is set up. I have nothing against helping people to an extent but, kids in college who can not afford it..should may be go part time or have a chance to work off the debt. I also have no problem with schools giving out lots of merit aid to attract better students! (so maybe I pick and choose what is ok, that is my right )

[Marsian]

MSNDIS -- I don't blame you. If I witnessed the kind of abuse of the system that you see with your friend's sister's family, I'd resent it too. We don't have pay TV, we have cheap cell phones, we shop at thrift stores, and we drive our cars until they fall apart -- all so we can save money for our children's college and our retirement. To see other living it up, then their daughter (I'll call her "Ashton") getting any kind of need-based aid, grates on me in a big way.

However, I have to take a deep breath and think about how a lot of people are struggling to get by and that those people genuinely need financial help so that their children can go to college. "Maria" is a young woman I know whose family is poor and lives in a house that is not much more than a shack. Her parents are from Mexico (and I assume are here legally, although I'm not sure). Her father is a farm worker and her mother is a house cleaner. They have instilled a strong work ethic and respect for education into their children. Maria is now at a state university, with lots of financial aid, including work-study. She is very bright and wants to be a pediatrician.

I would be happy to know that part of my child's tuition was going to help Maria get through college. She has an opportunity that she probably would not otherwise have had, and one day she will probably be able to help her parents out of poverty. By subsidizing her education, and the education of so many others like Maria, the state is making a good economic decision.

I think there are probably many more Marias than Ashtons. Now, if we could just find a way to get the Ashtons off the dole.

[mom2collegekids]

I did put $100,000 in assets, so that may have changed the financial need calculation. Note that BGO says that the student must "Demonstrate income below $80,000 with financial need, as determined for federal need-based aid program", so perhaps assets with low income may produce that result.



I wouldn't put that much in non-retirement, non-equity assets. Too many families earning under $80k per year do NOT have that much in unprotected assets.

[Beliavsky]

So, I apologize for anyone I may have offended but I honestly cannot afford to help pay for others' college tuition.

(Replying to #77) No need to apologize -- your comments made a lot of sense to me.

[Haystack]

A sociology professor at Centre College publishes a blog called the 'Gruntled Center'. He basically says that many Americans expect our policies to be perfect. The reality is that, our policies really just need to be 'good enough'.

I think this applies to financial aid policies. Is it optimal? Probably not, see above about some abuse of the system. But it does a pretty darn good job opening up education to many. Good enough and tolerable for me.

"A centrist wants to promote what is best for society, tolerate what is good enough, and prevent what is harmful. "

[BCEagle91]

> I do give to charity but I prefer to be able to pick and choose the
> charities I give to--I don't want to be forced to be charitable when
> it comes to college tuition (other than what I pay in taxes for our
> public universities). In my opinion, it is equivalent to a special
> tax for those who don't qualify for financial aid.

The choices for higher education in the United States is mind-boggling
so you do get to pick and choose which school you want so that you can
contribute the least towards aid for other students. The situation, of
course is more complicated than that because there are some benefits
from alumni contributions, appreciation in land values and intangibles
that make a college more than the sum of its parts. Or tuition and
fees.

> Here is the reason I made that statement in the first place. My
> friend's sister's husband is a dentist. They have a HUGE house,
> their kids of driving age were given NEW cars, and they go on
> spectacular vacations. Their oldest daughter qualifies for a Pell
> Grant. Why? Because they make their taxes look like they barely
> bring in any money from the dental practice. I'm sure they aren't
> the only people doing this.

I have to live with my conscience. I don't have to live with the
conscience of your friend's sister's husband's conscience. I try very
hard to play by the rules and the benefit is peace of mind. Do I pay
more for some things? Sure. But we try to run our lives efficiently
and with sufficient planning so that things like tuition increases
aren't a big problem.

> Also, FAFSA takes your savings into consideration so a family that
> has scrimped and saved has to list the amount of money they have in
> the bank and in investments. That counts against us when it comes to
> financial aid (and we don't even have much invested or in
> savings). In order to pay for our kids' education, we don't have any
> new technology (no flat panel TVs or any iPods, iPads or iPhones--in
> fact our phones are almost three years old and don't connect to the
> Internet), our cars are over 10 years old and we haven't gone on
> vacation in over five years. We rarely go out to eat and even less
> frequently waste money on Starbucks. I'm having to limit the
> colleges my younger daughter is applying to because we can't afford
> the application fees and score reporting fees for reach schools.

We scrimped and saved and filled out the FAFSA and the EFC was double
the cost of a private university. So we didn't fill out any more FAFSA
forms. We only got a used bed at home this past year so that we don't
have to sleep on the floor as much as we used to. And we just replaced
our previous car with 250K miles. The previous car had 186 and the car
before that 225K.

Again, the benefit in having savings is that you can deal with
emergencies in your household, help others out and have some measure
of peace of mind in that your kids have some choice in where they can
go. Your kids get some peace of mind knowing that there's a cushion of
savings that give them more options and options in dealing with
problems.

> It is our choice to pay our kids' college expenses so our kids can
> hopefully enter the working world after college with no debt. I
> don't know if we'll make it but that is our goal. Next year both our
> kids will be in college and I really don't think we'll be able to
> pay for both. They both have jobs but don't make enough to pay their
> own way through college or even make much of a dent in the
> tuition. We're hoping the younger one gets some great merit
> scholarships. If not, she'll be forced to wait a year to go to
> college or possibly start out at a community college (we paid $500
> for ONE CC class for her this past summer so community colleges are
> no longer affordable either). If she sits out a year I'm worried she
> will not go to college at all.

These are all fine options. You do what you reasonably can with your
budget. If the money isn't there, then don't spend it. I went to
college for a year and then went into the workforce and got my degrees
later in life. It gave me a chance to start a business and garner a
lot of experiences that were useful later in life. You can always go
to school. You can't always get a job.

> I'm sorry if I sound bitter but I can barely afford to pay my oldest
> daughter's tuition and this economy hasn't helped. My salary has
> decreased 3% and my husband's has decreased about $400 a WEEK. In
> addition, we both pay more now for our health insurance and my
> husband's company is no longer contributing to his retirement so we
> eventually need to save more to make up for the lack of his
> retirement. I'm at the financial breaking point and making me pay
> extra tuition to help someone else out is NOT my idea of PUBLIC
> education. At a private university (which we cannot afford), I don't
> have a problem with it.

The economy has been tough on a lot of people but people adjust and
adapt and work through the changed environment. Your state of mind is
what you determine it to be. You can rail against the system or try
to figure out the best plan and how to execute on it.

I can tell you that things are a lot better on the other side when they
have graduated and are out in the working world.

> So, I apologize for anyone I may have offended but I honestly cannot
> afford to help pay for others' college tuition.

~ >

[NewHope33]

"So, I apologize for anyone I may have offended but I honestly cannot afford to help pay for others' college tuition."

On the off-chance all the discussion above hasn't sunk in ... YOU ARE A TAKER TOO. Basing your argument on the university budget? Do you think the buildings and grounds of simply appeared the day you stepped on campus? Or that faculty and staff didn't spend considerable time and money preparing themselves for the positions they hold. Or that (as Barrons points out) endowments that support your attendance just materialized from nowhere?

I happen to agree that the current system is awkward and would benefit from change. But when persons of means begin suggesting that THEY are the financially maligned ... well I just gotta say there are some major voids in the education those persons received.

[CTScoutmom]

MSNDIS - send your younger daughter next year. Find the money, because in terms of family finances, you are better off with 2 in school at the same time. Family contribution should be split between the two students, so while your costs for the year will go up, it will end up costing more if there is no overlap.

That brings us to the part of the system that bothers me. I have 3 children, spaced 7 years apart. We will have one year with 2 in college. Because we chose to space our children 3 anr 4 years apart, to make raising them more affordable, we are penalized. Had our children been born 3 years in a row, we would be paying tuition bills for 6 years total. Even if they go to schools that don't meet full need, those 6 years of tuition would still be far less than the 11 years we face. Does that mean we will be subsidizing all the families that chose to overlap their kids?

I understand some of the resentment, and even feel some of it myself. It is not just families that "hide" their income who get a break. I wouldn't trade our income for that of lower-income families, but I do see how some families milk the system. There are families on public assistance who drive nice cars, have 47" televisions, and go on vacations, and I do wish that would stop. I do think their priorities are messed up, but I also know that I am raising my kids differently. My resentment won't change anything, so why bother? Instead, I will help my children to take advantage of everything that is offered to them. Life has never been fair, and I don't know why anyone expects it to suddenly become fair now.

We have choices to make, and have already made some. D is not applying to our state flagship, because it costs too much. There is not much merit money, and we would qualify for little need-based aid according to their formulas. Why apply there when private colleges will end up costing less? We each need to find our own comfort level. If we are not comfortable with "subsidizing" other students, we need to ensure that our children understand where they fit in the order of things, and help them do what they can to improve their own position.

[sevmom]

CTScoutmom, That's the one policy I've never gotten either. I have 2 kids, 4 grades apart, so no overlap. Full pay for 8 straight years at public schools. But, they've gotten good educations so,in the end, it's all good.

[BCEagle91]

> I wouldn't put that much in non-retirement, non-equity assets. Too
> many families earning under $80k per year do NOT have that much in
> unprotected assets.

My sister-in-law made about $30K (Singapore so more like $22K US) in
her previous career and makes less than that now. She has about $700K
in financial assets. Savings and investment is ingrained in certain
cultures.

> I would be happy to know that part of my child's tuition was going
> to help Maria get through college. She has an opportunity that she
> probably would not otherwise have had, and one day she will probably
> be able to help her parents out of poverty. By subsidizing her
> education, and the education of so many others like Maria, the state
> is making a good economic decision.

My son went to a school in a city where median household income is
about $38,000. The school does more to stretch a buck than any other
that I've seen. Physical plant and equipment is pretty bad but you
don't have to have the best to get a good education. It's easier to
spend or donate to a place that you know is efficient with resources.

> it is not fair I come home from work way after it is dark out and
> have to stop at the supermarket and wait in line behind people with
> expensive I phone's , professional done nails ....who pay with food
> stamps and WIC checks. I think hey I support these folks , maybe I
> should be able to get ahead of them in line or

This is a problem in some states where people that are employed manage
to get EBT cards or families manage to get multiple cards. The tax
pool is huge so there's some amount of theft encouraged with systems
that give things away for free. There's slack in any kind of system.
What you can do is to be part of the process that changes it or just
live within the system so that your conscience is clear.

> I think FA just serves to drive up the cost of college. The ready
> availability of student loans does, too. Many private colleges and
> certainly virtually all public universities NEVER really reduce
> their expenditures and cost structure. They siphon funds by ramping
> up tuition, then creating a labyrinthine system in which, indeed, a
> whole lot of income redistribution goes on -- to pay the way of the
> relatively few on FA but mostly to fund themselves. Same for the
> loans.

This is similar to other bubbles we've seen - the internet bubble and
the housing bubble. If you make easy money available, it has to go
somewhere. In the past, the rewards of the loan made sense. In our
current economy, the rewards for the cost are being questioned.

> If we pulled all that out from under them, the costs of college
> attendance would go way, way down.

That's basic economics. Decrease demand because people wouldn't be
able to afford the product without supports.

> I'm really hopeful the internet-based remote learning model takes hold
> for higher education. Wish it had come along in time for my kids.

It's an interesting experiment but I have my doubts that it will make
a material impact as I think that only a relatively small number of
students want this sort of thing.

> I think the entire model of college education in this country makes
> absolutely no sense.

The current model does still work for a lot of people.