Parent suddenly not onboard with ED agreement?

[whydoicare]

@OP - it seems to me that the immediate question is whether to withdraw the ED supplement at Columbia. I hope you don't. If it comes down to whether or not your Mom contributes $5K/year, that could be a manageable amount to borrow, if everything else falls into place. So wait and see.

You are already looking into schools for the RD round.

[lookingforward]

Why are folks even pushing Kenyon so ardently? It's one postcard, rather late in the game. It's got merit and OP said he's got other merit schools in his sights. It's not his #2, it's something that recently grabbed Mom's attention.

Fact is, like many other choices, Kenyon is not in a major hub. Fine for some, not for others. Pointing to the influence of Greek life is not asking for percentages. It's pointing out that, in a remote area/small town, some on-campus groups can, by necessity, have a large spill-over influence. Same for LGBT considerations; some will want to be in a larger environment, with more (and more varied) opps for interaction. Some won't care.

[cptofthehouse]

That folks are pushing Kenyon is not the issue. That the postcard caught Mom's attention is. I think it hit her that it is possible for her student to go to college for little money if he gets some merit awards that look like they fit him to a tee. That would solve some issues for her. Some parents who are keeping the smiles and reassurances up about managing the costs are hiding some serious financial issues and are just hoping something would come up. The post card could be what did. As I said earlier, this sort of epiphany often happens when all the offers are on the table and then free or $10K or $20K starts looking an awful lot better than $30, 40, 60K in costs.

[mini]

I think the entire conversation of Kenyon is irrelevant. The OP applied ED, which means his family has committed NOT to compare offers. The only question is, if admitted, does the aid offer meet the family's need. Not their 'comfort'. Not their "preference". Not what they'd "like". Need.

If they want to compare offers, the OP should change his application to RD NOW (and I think he knows that's the right thing to do.)

[SlitheyTove]

The only question is, if admitted, does the aid offer meet the family's need. Not their 'comfort'. Not their "preference". Not what they'd "like". Need.

Since different schools can come up with different definitions of a family's "need", it's not an absolute. Hence the family gets to call the shots. At least until such time as the NPCs become accurate enough to predict actual aid packages within spitting distance.

[vonlost]

And I think we old timers would agree: If the OP is fortunate to be admitted and the family can afford the offer, they will accept it!

[Marian]

If the OP passes up the chance to apply ED, he may very well end up getting rejected by Columbia and getting into Kenyon without substantial merit $.

Most applicants, even those with extraordinary qualifications, get rejected by Columbia. It's one of the most selective universities in the country. An applicant's chances of admission are a little better ED than RD, but that's a lot like saying that it's more likely to snow in September than in July.

[lookingforward]

Know what? We don't know OP's financial details- or even if he is a good candidate for Columbia or just hoping ED will tip him. But, from his attention to posts here and his responses, I think he's paying attention to the input and carefully considering his best decisions.

[JHS]

cpt: If the mother seriously wanted "free," she has more or less missed the boat. The Columbia net price calculator said "$5,000" for her, which is awfully close to free in collegeworld. If (again, big if) the OP get into Columbia, it's not a question of free vs. $30K for her. It's a question of fantasy vs. $5K, and turning down the $5K for the fantasy. That would be dumb.

mini: You are right that comparative shopping is inconsistent with ED. But it takes several gaps of logic to say that means the OP should convert his application to RD "NOW". By keeping the application ED, the OP is merely putting himself in a situation where, if he wants to compare offers, Columbia will be out of the question. It's perfectly OK for him, effectively, to let Columbia make a first offer, and then decide whether it's good enough to foreclose shopping. And it doesn't have to be the best possible offer to foreclose shopping, just good enough that the possible gains from shopping don't seem worth the risk of giving up a first choice and not doing better.

I know you have a big psychic investment in railing against ED as a way colleges favor the rich (and I agree with your analysis on that), but it's perverse to make a crappy system for applicants look crappier than it really is so you can condemn it more effectively.

[xiggi]

Actually, a case could be made that ED favors the well-informed and astute. While this is a proxy for the wealthy in many cases, it remains that ED is one of the best tools for the zero and very low EFC students, and perhaps the most erroneously harpooned admission crutch.

[lookingforward]

Columbia is the first I've seen in a while that shows sample packages. Seems so many skipped that when they went to NPC.

Thing is, when you have an OP actually listening, I believe we should be cautious about running off to draw a line in the sand just based on our personal feelings about ED.

If OP stays ED and the offer backfires, (as it could if a parent is self-employed,) he loses any shot at Columbia. If he converts to RD, he has all the offers to compare. If he is a borderline candidate, hoping for an edge, he loses that in RD. He seems mature enough to tackle that decision.

Mom wanting something that costs less than 5k-- face it, we all know there is a slim possibility of this. Even Kenyon leaves it subjective.

[OrangeD00D]

Originally Posted by anniezz

Once COLUMBIA HAS THE CSS PROFILE form, you or your parents can call the financial aid office and see if they can give you an early estimate. If you ran the npc separately for each parent and you have accurate info, it may well be affordable with what you've said, and no need to change from ed to rd. Good luck!

Thanks, I'll look into that and see.

Originally Posted by mini

If the OP applied ED for the purposes of his or his parents comparing financial aid offers afterwards, looking for the best offer, the honorable thing to do is to withdraw the ED application.

I applied for myself. My mother is the one that wants to look over other offers, which I can understand, it makes sense.

Originally Posted by lookingforward

OP, call Columbia and confirm the formula and ask any questions.

- Mom and Dad together have now said they can pay 15k. That's all we know for that part.
- If the accurate formula is "Mom's + Dad's," maybe EFC is closer to 10k than 30k. With Columbia being 100% need, even if the official EFC comes in higher, this is a far better position than when we thought EFC would be 30k.

We posters shouldn't further confuse things, esp not with speculation. Call and do this final fact-finding.

OP's situation is he likes Columbia enough to apply ED. If the right FA offer doesn't come through, he turns them down, no 2nd shot. OP can convert to RD, but I think this last info is worth going for.

Great idea. I'll call tomorrow (I'm Pacific Time so they're closed by now) since I have early release.

Originally Posted by jonri

It "sounds" as if the OP is an unhooked white male.

I'm not sure if it makes a difference as far as this thread goes, but I am latino.



Anyways, thank you everyone for your input. I am tempted now to move my application to RD but would like some more opinions with this new information:

My mom and dad spoke over the phone. My dad said my mom was concerned about how I would react to Columbia, and she says she'd rather I go to school in California. FA at Columbia is insanely generous and I don't see how I could replicate something like that, save going to the local, in state CSU or UC (which even then would amount to over $5k/year), or getting into a school like Stanford.

My dad also shared with me that my mom got a lot of money from the divorce -- $150k from my dad's retirement and $85k when he actually retires in June (figures he quoted to me, not sure how accurate or if any taxes apply, etc). She makes about $85k/year, to put it in perspective. I'm not sure how this will affect the financial aid deal if I do get one. Would it cost me the $10k we were looking at, leading me to look at something like $25 or $30 thousand? Naturally the $85k won't show up for this year, but it WILL show up next year -- and that means I could be stuck at Columbia with my parents paying a lot more than my first year. The NPC doesn't ask about retirement, but the PROFILE *does,* so inevitably I think Columbia will consider it, too.

If this is the case then, I feel as if I should apply RD and see what merit scholarships I can get, hopefully they can be substantial enough to offset this new information. This is all incredibly frustrating but I am glad I found this before it got a lot worse.

[cptofthehouse]

Let me tell you why I do not like ED unless there are well informed parents supporting this venue. First of all. even among the most selective schools, with the most generous aid packages, with just a few exceptions (and other than Harvard, I don't know of the others), aid packages can vary greatly even among schools claiiming to use the same methodology. Both Sybbie and Katwkittens, long time members on this forum have personally experienced this. Some school integrate PELL into the award, have student contribution requirements, include loans and work study in their packages, have different ways of handling outside awards,count home equity differently and flat out have differnt formulas. A several thousand dollars difference in costs can make a very big difference in the lives of low income families or any family having financial difficulties. The other thing is that the financial aid information is done before the year is over and with estimates. Many people have trouble getting it together seriously when it isn't time to do those all important tax forms and for an "estimate". Also between the time the info is gathered and the forms are filed, there could be significant changes. Also, ED is such a "Big Mo" thing. If the student is accepted and an offer made, the impetus is to accept, try to work it out. It's all the kid pretty much has and the chorus is saying "accept, accept, accept" and you have your kid's puppy dog eyes looking at you begging. So psychologically, it's tough to say no, not having any idea if this is going to be a typical offer and you are just going to have pay this amount at any school, or if there are better birds out in those bushes. Having seen many priorities change in April when all the offers are on the table, it's really putting a family in a rough situation when there is just the one offer to take or refuse.

In the OP's situation, just reading what he has written, I see red flags everywhere. If Columbia's NPC is showing a $5K per parent contribution, I rather doubt Kenyon is going to be giving more. If the OP gets the full tuition scholarship, there is still room, board, supplies,transportation, etc that has to be paid, and it's not as though K is going to give financial aid on top of the merit award. So really, the cost come out to be about the same, and even less for Columbia, if indeed the $10K figure is correct. The mother has to be pushed to give the financials and is suddenly concerned about financial aid and is more interested in merit makes me wonder what is going on here, especially since the cost is about the same and even less for C with the info as given. Was some lump sum payment given, is there some money there that Mom does not want divulged, is there a future marriage possibly in the works which could but a wrench in the fin aid works, did Mom misrepresent assets during divorce asset settlement that could come to light in all of this? Also we don't know how straightforward the assets and income are for either parent. The NPC is only as good as the info given to it. So I smell some fish around here. For whatever reason, the mom is not on board, and that is a problem wth ED, Maybe she won't be able to even pay the $5K needed, and maybe more than $5K will be needed. This is not a smooth flying case where both parents are bending over backwards to make it work, and it makes no sense.

I don't know how great Columbia's aid packages are either. They do include loans, including institutional ones in their package and they integrate outside awards inot their packages.

Yes, the student can turn down the acceptance offer, if he is accepted early and the package is a no go, but mom might be playing "chicken" here, hoping against hope fora better offer in the merit area. If the chips are down, maybe she would pay up. But for whatever reason, she thinks that the Kenyon chances are better and this can lead to all kinds of unpleasant scenes. All we know here is that for some reason, she is not on board for this.

All probably a moot point of discussion as the offers are soon to come and OP has to decide on his own what to do. But these are reasons why I don't like ED in general, and in this case.

There was a situation some months ago where a dad was looking at ED at a school. In that case, he was informed, on board and was aware of all of the risks and pitfalls of ED. He was willing to make a stretch even if the money was a bit short, MOm was on board. It looked like a go to me, and so I said. But even then there were issues he had not thought about. In his case, he was willing to take those risks but most of the time parents are not so informed. A full PELL kid who might be able to keep his PELL money as an extra, keep outside scholarships, especially when some nice big fat ones come through, not have a student required contribution--all of these things might swing a decision over. When ED works out, and statistically it almost always does, partly because of who usually applies ED and also because of the push to accept it, it's beautiful. Wdoes second hand smoke from pot make you highhen it doesn't, it's is ugly, ugly, ugly and can hurt financially.

[mini]

"mini: You are right that comparative shopping is inconsistent with ED. But it takes several gaps of logic to say that means the OP should convert his application to RD "NOW"."

Sorry, but I stand by what I said. Colleges set up ED programs so as to provide applicants a sense of security in receiving admissions offers in December (or more likely, rejections, so they can move on.) In exchange, they ask for the applicants to give up the right to compare offers. If the OP and family can't abide by this agreement, they shouldn't have signed it.

OrangeD - which parent signed the ED agreement?

[OrangeD00D]

mini: My father signed the agreement. He read it and was OK with the language, and still is.