How important is class rank?

[oldfort]

SteveMa - I think the piece you are missing is that those top tier schools are gauging students' potential, not what they have learned in high school. My kid's private school's curriculum was harder than most schools in our state. If top tier colleges only care about what students have mastered in high school then they would be taking more than 50% of kids from my kid's high school, and those colleges should just not admit any students who didn't graduate from handful of top ranking high schools.

[SteveMA]

I'm not "missing" that, simply trying to point out to the OP that the system her son's current school is using is plenty fair given that the coursework he took at his former school was not as challenging as what his classmates took. It's irrelevant that he might have done as well if he started the new school in 9th grade because he didn't and they can only go on the data supplied. Class rank, in my opinion, is not a good indicator of how well kids will do in college. It's an indication of how well they did in high school. Also, maybe your child's private school curriculum was harder than the public school down the road, but was it harder than a public school elsewhere in another state, maybe yes, maybe no. With no real system in place to rank high schools across the country the only "standard" colleges have are the SAT and ACT and personally I put more weight on how students do on those tests then GPA and class rank.

[oldfort]

the coursework he took at his former school was not as challenging as what his classmates took.

Well, actually that may not necessary be true. My kid's school didn't offer many APs, but most kids got 5s on many AP exams without taking AP courses because their curriculum was that rigorous.

In OP son's case, it is unfair to compare him to kids at his new school because he didn't go to their school for 3 years. He went to a different school with different course offering and different grading system. It would be like comparing apples and oranges.

I put more weight on how students do on those tests then GPA and class rank.

I think most people would disagree with that. This topic has been discussed to death.

[SteveMA]

I am sure most people would disagree with that, however, in my experience the SAT/ACT score is a better predictor of how well students do in college, not only grades but overall college life.

As for the students in your kid's school doing that well on the AP tests, private prep school is hardly the same as a small public school pretty much anywhere.

[lookingforward]

^ post 18. Adcoms will be savvy to that. They'll look at the individual. They can't expect him to have "caught up" in one semester. So, they will look at how he performed before the move and how he took on the new challenges.

It's true top dog at a less competitive hs isn't as good as at a competitive hs. And, that some college awards are simply based on rank, wherever the kid was. But, this is a circumstance where there is no one playing field to assess him on. We're talking Cornell and Vandy. Holistic.

Make sure he shines in the CA, the "rest of the story," beyond stats. Good luck.

[mitchklong]

What is his GPA ?

[ucbalumnus]

Originally Posted by SteveMA

I am sure most people would disagree with that, however, in my experience the SAT/ACT score is a better predictor of how well students do in college, not only grades but overall college life.

UC studies indicate that AP scores, SAT Subject tests, and high school grades are all better predictors than SAT Reasoning or ACT tests in predicting college grades. Which seems to explain their emphasis on grades over test scores, but they don't seem to be willing to fight the prevailing winds by requiring SAT Subject tests instead of SAT Reasoning or ACT tests.

[oldfort]

My point is if my kid had moved to that school and they only looked at APs then my kid wouldn't have been as competitive as those students, but in fact the rigor of her courses were probably compatible. That's what happened to my kid when she moved junior year. She hadn't taken any APs because they weren't offered at her old school, but her new school had offered APs since 9th grade. My kid had 1.5 year to bring her GPA up relative to students at her new school, not the case for OP's son.

[blueiguana]

To directly answer the OPs question, I think the class rank is going to be somewhat meaningless at the new school. You have a class of apples that have has the same opportunities 9-12 and you compare them and make a calculation. If you throw an orange in the mix 3/4 of the way through you now have an apple/orange hybrid who clearly is not an apple. Any attempt to make a conversion of orange data to apple data for the preceding 3/4 is going to be sloppy science at best. Where that apple/orange hybrid falls in any calculation of the group of apples is going to be less meaningful as it's only 1/4 apple. There is no way to know how big that hybrid would have grown if it had been an apple the entire time.

Okay, it made perfect sense to me.

[SteveMA]

But Oldfort--if a kid from your D's school transferred to the OP's school haven taken all those AP tests with their 5's to prove it, they can make a case that the courses they took were as rigorous, that isn't the case here and the OP's school has to look at the school report from the previous school to make that determination--which DOES get sent when kids transfer from one school to the next. Which, again, shows that the GPA from the previous school is meaningless. We are also not considering that the OP's child could have very well slipped to 11% in his old school by now too .

[oldfort]

blue - it made perfect sense to me.

One thing adcoms also look for is if a student has taken full advantage of course offering at his/her school. In OP son's case, he did at his old school.

[lookingforward]

OP said the new hs offers more APs and kids pack their schedules to gain greater w gpa. That's all we know. We don't even know if the new hs teaching and grading is more rigorous. Just the number of APs is larger.

[Greening]

DS attended a very good yet small public HS. He took all the AP/H classes available, and filled every remaining minute with EC/sports, etc. He scored very well on the ACT. I have no doubt that he can compete with the students at his new HS, especially after seeing his first trimester report card. I believe what hurt his GPA here is the amount of standard classes he has. Even when he received an A, it will only translate to a 4.0 here. An A in honors is a 4.5 and 5.0 in AP. Students here that are concerned about their GPA will not take a class unless it is honors or AP. How sad is that? Now do I discourage my 10th grader not to take art class or dabble in computer graphics or other non required class because it may pull down his GPA?

I like the comparison of apples to oranges.

[blueiguana]

I'm so glad someone else understood the apple/orange scenario.

Greening - I'd be far more worried if the schools were known for sheer stats and number evaluations, but both use holistic admissions which is far better in this situation for fairly assessing your son.

[ahsmuoh]

I would not discourage a kid from taking an interesting class (elective) if it "hurt" his GPA. Personally I think that sucks if people are doing that (and I know they are!)

One thing I would add - my dd goes to a private school (190 kids in her class) and they do NOT rank. I have asked many ad comms about that and they have told me it is getting close to 1/2 of the schools in the country do not rank - so when you see the stats about what percentile you have to be in on the common data set or website - remember that is only about 1/2 of the admitted students stats. I have been told to not worry about it and I would certainly not worry about being 11% instead of 10% if the rest of the application is great!