Sending the wrong students to college

[poetgrl]

No, I believe that most business writing is setting specific and re-learned anyway. There are plenty of mechanisms by which spelling and punctuation are easily corrected. There are very few mechanisms by which the uncreative and sloppy thinkers will elevate beyond a classroom.

Reasonable people can disagree on this, though. I just think the colleges are behind in terms of teaching what is really useful. Just my opinion.

[OHMomof2]

Typically, correction of grammar and spelling on a message board is annoying. In this case, the OP painted a grammatical bullseye on his posts with that opening gem.

I'd never have done it otherwise

So I don't hit-and-run with only that contribution...I think being able to write well is a skill most people need at some point whether it's a key part of their work or not. I'm a web developer and most of my time is spent coding. But to get a job coding, I usually have to write a convincing proposal, or at least send coherent emails to clients.

I wince when I read grammatical errors. Typos...not as much. I can overlook "hte" when "the" is meant because I am sure the writer knows how to spell the word but simply transposed the letters typing in haste. I may, however, forgive it more because I do it a lot myself...never really learned how to touch-type and I tend to think faster than my fingers move.

I think most of us don't even try that hard on a bulletin board, I know I only occasionally go back and correct minor errors when I post here.

[ucbalumnus]

Originally Posted by poetgrl

No, I believe that most business writing is setting specific and re-learned anyway. There are plenty of mechanisms by which spelling and punctuation are easily corrected.

However, those are relatively easy to correct. Grammar is a somewhat more complex aspect of writing. Even more complex is the ability to put together several sentences or paragraphs that correctly and coherently state and support the idea that one is writing about.

Yes, there are differences in writing about various subjects like business, science, history, literature (the main focus of high school and college English composition courses), politics, etc.. But spelling, punctuation, grammar, and putting together sentences and paragraphs correctly and coherently are useful in all of these contexts.

Reading is also a fundamental skill. Even those going into jobs where a bachelor's degree is not needed often have to read documentation relating to their work. For example, consider the service manual for a car, which often has instructions that must be followed exactly to maintain and repair a car correctly and safely.

[Pizzagirl]

Beliavsky, you seem obsessed with the idea that all ills in society and higher education can be cured by blocking the doors to higher education to anyone who does not hail from Scarsdale, Belmont or Winnetka. What gives????

LOL - you took the words off my keyboard! There's such an obsession on Beliavsky's part to ensure that "just the right" people get to take advantage of opportunities. "Right" as measured by SAT scores, of course, because They Are The Measure of Humanity. Relax, already.

[ucbalumnus]

Originally Posted by SteveMA

The demise of phonics in early elementary ages is a lot to blame for this.

Perhaps there would be no controversy about phonics if English were phonetically consistent.

Gaining thorough knowledge of English as needed through advanced levels of education can be tough, though.

[Marian]

No, I believe that most business writing is setting specific and re-learned anyway. There are plenty of mechanisms by which spelling and punctuation are easily corrected.

First, you have to get a job.

During the summer between her first and second years of college, my daughter had an internship at a nonprofit organization. At the time, the organization was recruiting for a job that was not particularly writing intensive. Nevertheless, my daughter's supervisor, who was responsible for hiring the new employee, scrutinized each applicant's resume and cover letter carefully, and if she found even one error in spelling, grammar, punctuation, or formatting, she threw the applicant's paperwork in the trash. Her rationale was that if an applicant wasn't conscientious enough to make sure that his/her application paperwork was perfect, that person couldn't be trusted to do good work on the job.

Seeing this made a permanent impression on my daughter -- and on me.

[poetgrl]

Yes, well, writing a resume and a cover letter are really not the same thing as writing a paper, anyway, which is why most college students benefit from going to the career center for some assistance, since it is a very specific skill set.

But, I belabor the point. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

In terms of getting a job, though, once again, let me restate that making a good presentation is more important. there are all sorts of resume editing services out there, and, yet, nobody can teach you how to speak well and present yourself well when there is no emphasis on this in school. My experience has been that some people's great resumes and CVs belie the fact that the applicants lack the basic communication skills necessary for the actual life of working with others.

[Marian]

I'll agree to disagree, but I also want to draw attention to another occupation where accurate spelling is crucial -- tattooing.

There are many examples online. Just Google "tattoo spelling error." I've chosen this link because it's one of the few that doesn't include any "adult" words in the tattoos.

5 Terrible Tattoo Typos

[Marsian]

I taught myself to read at an early age by memorizing words -- what we now call the "whole language" approach. My siblings and children learned to read early as well, by associating words in books with what they heard being read to them, not by using phonics. We range in our writing and spelling skills from good to excellent, so not learning through phonics didn't hurt us at all. However, some children don't learn to read so easily, and for those children phonics may be exactly what they need. That is why teachers typically use a combination of both approaches to teach reading.

I agree with ucbalumnus. Not only are words in English phonetically inconsistent, an individual word may be pronounced differently in different regions. For example, in my part of the country the words "dog" and "log" do not sound like "bog".

[poetgrl]

I'll agree to disagree, but I also want to draw attention to another occupation where accurate spelling is crucial -- tattooing.

you win.

[sseamom]

"That is why teachers typically use a combination of both approaches to teach reading."

Yes-I have three kids. One learned using phonics-and was a later reader while working math problems years ahead of his grade level. The next one demanded I teach her to read at age 3 so I picked up a phonics workbook-she hated it and used beginning readers to teach herself using whole words. The last one was a somewhat early reader who learned using both methods both at home and school.

Interestingly, the older two are terrible at spelling, though we think their father's mild dyslexia is at play here. The youngest has always been an excellent speller, although she makes far more typos, even though she's the one who's grown up with electronic communication. I think the real answer is-there IS no one solution.

[Lakemom]

I knew we were headed for trouble when my son's 7th grade honors English teacher told the parents at back to school nite that she wouldn't be teaching the kids much grammar since she didn't like teaching it.

Student's have to take a foreign language in order to learn the past perfect and future perfect tense in school today.

[Hanna]

The poor state of writing skills in this country makes me very sad.

My political canvassing this fall exposed me to lots of lawn and seasonal decorations. In urban, rural, and suburban areas alike, many people had signs, mailboxes, welcome mats, etc. with the family name. A MAJORITY were punctuated like this: "The Camaroff's."

Most of these were on nice single-family homes in pleasant neighborhoods, and were often themselves expensive-looking custom pieces. (I'm pretty sure that home & garden stores don't stock the German and Polish names one finds in Wisconsin and Eastern Iowa.) I'd love to believe that there's just one Camaroff in each house and that he refers to himself using the definite article, but...no.

[Pizzagirl]

"The Camaroff's" is a major pet peeve of mine.

I am not shy in informing shopkeepers and so forth when they have had grammatical or spelling errors in their signage or communication, and why someone should be strung up for it.

[skrlvr]

As a professor of sociology at Rutgers University, I taught large lecture courses for years, basing grades on multiple-choice tests. So only after retiring, and offering to teach a small seminar for free, did I discover something important about student writing

This is the first line, and he lost me right there. So for his entire career, he was oblivious to the state of student writing at his own institution. And he uses the excuse that he taught large lecture courses, so I guess he feels he was 'exempt' from assigning anything that involved writing (I guess not even some short answer questions), because it would be too time consuming to read and evaluate. And I'm surprised that he never taught any small courses which would require writing --many times, profs teach a combination of smaller, upper level courses and larger, introductory courses.

I'd be curious as to how many students the average high school English teacher has per year, and if it's over a certain amount, then do those teachers get to assign only multiple choice tests?

Writing instruction doesn't stop at high school. And it shouldn't be left to a single discipline to have all the writing assignments at an introductory level.

Why should he complain about the state of writing preparation of college students when writing wasn't even required for his own classes? Clearly, they didn't need any writing preparation for his college class......