13 yr old Son ADD?/ what about tesitng accomodations?

[jym626]

oops-- typos in note above -- dyslexia is a phonological decoding skill.

[emeraldkity4]

so what is dyscalculia caused by?
Both my girls can do advanced math ( up through calc) but have difficulty with addition & subtraction facts. Even though the younger daughter has had extra tutoring and time spent on computation she is having difficulty getting the facts into long term memory.
In order to graduate high school she will have to pass the WASL which requires math problems to be explained as well as worked correctly. Calculators are also not allowed.
My older daughter didn't have to take standardized tests and used a calculator for her SATs.

[jym626]

Dyscalculia is usually caused by a problem with visual processing/scanning/integration. Sequencing and scanning problems can also be variables underlying math calculation skills. These are predominantly right hemisphere skills. Accordingly, some individuals with a Nonverbal Learning Disability might have problems with the visual-organizational substrates of math computation. Nonverbal memory skills can also be involved, but the aspects of math that use language-based shills (word problems, etc) may be less problematic.

[calmom]

SBMom -- processing speed may impact your son's ability to keep up or focus, but if he is highly motivated he will work to overcome that. The only time it might be insurmountable might be on timed, skill-based tests -- but its likely that the teachers he enjoys are also using other forms of assessment. Also, they may be successful in engaging his interests him because they use teaching methods that engage his stronger learning pathways -- the processing deficit could be specific to certain types of sensory input. For example, an auditory processing deficit would not necessarily affected visual response time, and he may learn well from hands-on, participatory activities, where the processing deficits would have no bearing.

But the bottom line is that whatever deficit your son has, it is subtle enough that it has escaped notice until now. So it is not a severe disability -- rather it is something that makes everything more difficult for him to a small degree. Where he is highly motivated, he may be willing to put in the extra energy required to overcome the weakness... but when he lacks interest, then he is not going to want to put in the effort he needs to keep up.

Keep in mind that a processing speed deficit is NOT a cognitive deficit in the sense of an inability to understand or learn any particular subject; it is simply a speed issue, a matter of your son's response time being a fraction of a second slower than it ought to be. One reason that these things are hard to catch is that most of the time, the speed doesn't make much difference in terms of learning ability -- so for example, your son could have problems with one teacher who speaks too fast for him, but no problem at all with a teacher who speaks more slowly and pauses regularly to allow students to ask questions.

[jym626]

Calmom's comments are correct, to a degree. Again, it depends if the processing speed issues are predominantly auditory or verbal-. The analogy I like to give to patients is that an auditory processing speed problem is like having a modem that takes info at 56k, but the info is coming in at 128k (in my day, we'd use the 45 and 33 1/3 rpm record analogy). You simply cant encode all the info, and the more that comes at you in class, the behinder you get (as they say). Similarly, visual processing can effect reading, reading comprehension, math computation, etc-- and in general, time dependent tasks (such as standardized testing). In the lower grades, it is comparatively easy for bright kids to compensate for procesing speed problems and attentional problems, but as task demands get longer, harder and more complex, compensatory strategies can begin to break down. Motivation alone really cannot be expected to adequately compensate for these issues. I feel that sends the wrong message to the student-- sort of like saying "you aren't trying hard enough" which often just isn't true. That can have a negative impact on the kid's self esteem, and cause a bunch of other problems to surface. Processing speed issues ae sort of the "hot" issue these days in dx and tratment of learning disabilities. To say that these aren't cognitive deficits is not exactly accurate- and I would hate for a student to be given the message that they just need to pick up the pace, or try an illicit drug to speed up (it has happened, unfortunately). I don't want anyone to see me as bein critical, but this is my profession, and I am trying to speak from experience.

[calmom]

jym626, I wasn't saying that motivation solves the underlying problem, I was saying that motivation may be the reason that a kid is willing to put in extra effort to succeed in spite of the problem -- in response to SBmom's question about why her kid has mixed performance, A's in the classes where he likes the teacher, D's in the others - which she felt might negate the possibility of a learning disability. Your modem analogy is a good one -- if you have a slow internet connection but are visiting a web site that has high-bandwidth content that you really, truly want -- you'll stay on that site as long as it takes to download. But if you aren't particularly interested and the site is taking too long... you quickly give up and move on to something else. It doesn't mean that your modem works faster for sites you like -- it just means that you have more patience. If a kid is confused in a class because he missed hearing crucial information, his level of motivation might make the difference as to whether he takes the time to try other avenues (asking the teacher for help after class, doing his own research, going back and re-reading material)... or just doesn't bother. It isn't a matter of blaming the kid .. but it is part of understanding why a kid will do better in classes where he "likes" the teacher. I put "likes" in quotes because it is always possible that the reason the kid resonates with a particular teacher is that there is a common thread of communication. I mean, both my son and I learned pretty early on how to spot a dyslexic teacher, and of course they were always the ones with the teaching styles perfectly suited to my son's needs.

[jym626]

Thank you for clarifying, Calmom. Wat is sounds like you are describing is in part the fact that kids respond well to a teacher who teaches them the way that they learn best. Rather than trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, the teacher that is flexible or creative in their teaching style, and presents the information in the method that works best for kids with learning differences is going to have a far better result. When I do an evaluation, I try to address, in my recommendations, how the school/teacher can change to best help this student, not how the student must change to learn by the teaching method or style imposed by the teacher. Ultimately, is is really a bit of a compromise on both parts, but I try to address the fact that the childs ultimate academic success can be maximized my changes in both learning and teaching styles. I hope I am making sense-- I just try to address the fact that it is not all the responsibility of the student to change. I believe a student will often "like" a teacher who has this innate sense- when a student "gets it" they are much happier in general, than when they are lost and struggling (well, that goes without say, I guess..)

[SBmom]

WEIRD update:

I had a bizarre experience with my son last night. We were at a New Year's eve party given by family friends. For fun they had set up a "casino" night and at one point we all played poker (betting for chips). My son & his friend (both 13) joined in.

OMG!! I have never seen him so riveted! It was a perfect illustration of the adrenaline (betting/wanting to win/trying to beat grownups) plus the "fun" aspect of a game absolutely sharpening his focus. He was really moving fast (always the one prompting whomever's turn it was to see, bet, or fold.) He made very quick decisions, etc. Definitely seemed "caffienated."

My H and I were gaping at each other the whole time. It was sort of encouraging re: his ability to focus-- but on the other hand you could completely flash forward to him being a compulsive gambler!! I mean, there was a very slightly *crazed* aspect to his demeanor. (This particular S does not like to travel as much as my H & I do; I joked that he'd probably be up for any trips to Las Vegas, Atlantic City, or Monte Carlo!)

Anyway, just showed so clearly how focus/speed depends on these other factors...

[jym626]

SB-
The "beauty", as it were, of poker, is that it is relatively quick-- with each hand not lasting too long. A bridge hand would likely be a little less "exciting" and require more planning and sustained attention. The excitement of something that has a quick effect and payoff is definitely motivating. In the bad ways, this is why people get into thrill-seeking behaviors, and why things can become addicitive. But yes, there can be lots of benefits, as you describe, as long as he wins enough hands to keep him charged up! Maybe he can win enough to pay his college tuition in a few years We just got back from the Bahamas-- gambling age there is 18. Should I tell your son?

[mom60]

sbmom- my son who has both dyslexia and add is an excellent poker player. It is big time with his group of friends. I think he has an unusual ability to see the entire game. He has always been unbeatable at checkers, connect four, backgammon, chess and puzzles. Yet didn't learn to read till age 10. We could not figure it out but he just has a different way of thinking then the rest of the family.
At Christmas his young cousin receive a game of stragedy that kept my son's attention for hours.

[jym626]

mom60
All the skills you describe are essentially non-language based skills. The way our memory works, when we are infants, we remember things visually (ever wonder how our kids could pick out the tape or CD they wanted without being able to read the label?). It is called eidetic imagery (sort of like photographic memory). As we develop language skills, and learn to read, this incredible visual memory tends to fade. Theoretically, if the language skills are delayed, the visual memory/ eidetic imagery skill may endure, and the games that utilize visual recall and visual encoding will be ones in which the child will excel.

[SBmom]

mom60-- It is true, how different intelligences go with different tasks. My son loves to make movies and can also sit at his computer editing videotape for easily 4 or 5 hours; my H is in that field and he's observed my S has a natural ability to edit (may be his version of "seeing the entire game"...) It can take a long time, but I guess the cutting and moving clips gives lots of mini instant payoffs.

I forgot to tell you he cleaned everyone out and won every single chip. At one point he had all but about $10 in chips and I said-- "You know, you're allowed to declare yourself a winner & stop playing." He replied, "Yeah, but we're not playing for money, we're just playing for chips so I might as well keep going till I'm out."

That's when I began thinking 'Gambler's Anonymous' for the future...

I had forgotten--but when we were traveling with another family last year, he'd appeared with about 40 bucks one day. I asked him where it came from and he said he'd won it playing poker with the 18 year old son in the other family!

Too bad there is no AP Poker!

[Carrera_GT]

Your son might not want testing accomodations. I have mild ADHD, and probobly could have gotten extended times, but I did not want it.

[mom60]

I am embarrassed as to how much money my son is up on his friends through poker. Intially we were concerned but the players have stayed consistent and we know the houses that they play at. Compared to what his peers are doing each Friday and Sat night I will take the poker.
Jym626 I appreciate all your knowledge. Over the years through various testing all sort of phrases are given out yet they don't really tell you alot. One thing that came out of the last round was the discription of son as one who does well at things that are quick and dirty.
Emeraldkity my son also is quick at math which was only found out after some private tutoring when the math tutor discovered this gift that son did not know he had. The tutor compared son to my daughter who he had tutored for some high level math. He said D may be at a higher level but she doesn't see why she does it. She memorizes formulas and does what she needs to do but doesn't appreciate why whereas son who struggles in school sees the why and that he could go far in math. This man gave my son such confidence that he ended up through tutoring doing a whole year and a half in one summer. And has since gotten A's. But he to took forever to learn his math facts. He still struggles with multiplication tables. He also ended up realizing that physics and chemistry also came easier for him.
Jym636- another question. Son has issues with memory and verbal recall. In Chemistry he has noticed that he does great on the free response type of questions. Where he solves the problems but bombs the multiple choice sections. Any thoughts or advice?
Thanks

[jym626]

Mom60-
Thanks for your comments-- you must be clairvoyant. I was beginning to wonder if I was sounding too "preachy", and that is not my intent. I also will apologize in advance for the likelihood that I will mix up the descriptions of the kids of Mom60, Calmom and SBmom-- It'd be helpful if you gave me a "cliff notes" version of what is going on with your son to best answer your question about chemistry. With what you've said thus far, I'd have predicted the opposite-- to a degree. That is, free response requires writing,and I am assuuming that with the dyslexia he also has an output (writing) problem as well. If recognition memory/cued recall is intact, you'd expect the multiple choice to be easier. However, if you look at it the other way, the free response allows him to express the procedure by which he solves the problem, and to the degree that these are formulas and such, there may be a strong spatial/numerical component to this. Thus, your son "visualizes" the response as the thinks it through. With multiple choice, he'd probably still have to think through the procedure, but has to "read" the choices, whether they are in the form of words or formulas. Then, he has to plug in, or match his computation to the choices in front of him, which takes an extra step. I am just thinking aloud with the linfo you've shared thus far-- does this make any sense??