EPGY math vs HS accelerated classes

NYMomof2 · 04-28-2006, 05:40 PM

I'm looking for advice about a decision that I may have to make in the next few weeks. My older son is now in 7th grade. He is very good in math and science, and intensely interested in them. He will take Probability and Game Theory this summer through CTY, and his goal at the moment is to go to MIT and become a physicist (like both of his parents). He took the SAT in December, at age 12, with no preparation other than doing a couple of practice tests the night before, and his scores were 640M/610V. He also took the Spatial Test Battery (Johns Hopkins) and got a 690.

He takes math with the 8th grade "super-accelerated" group; this is considered a 9th grade course and will appear on his HS transcript. It's Algebra I and some Geometry, and the students will take the NY Regents A in June (normally this is taken midway through 10th grade). The students in this track are the 13 top math students in the grade (one grade higher than his), and they will continue together through HS. The plan was for him to stay with them (the MS and HS share a campus so this is possible), but he has been complaining that the pace is too slow. He whips off his homework in less than 10 minutes, and gets perfect scores on his tests (except when he loses points for not showing his work, or can't do problems because he doesn't have graph paper, or when he transfers answers to the wrong place on the answer sheet, etc.) What worries me is that many of the kids in the class are using tutors in order to keep up.

Our school district is almost certainly going to do a pilot project with Stanford EPGY next year, and if they do then my son will probably have the option to do math on his own using their software (at school, paid for by the school). I am leaning toward this, because he has been doing EPGY math at home off and on since 1st grade. He loves it, and has never had any problem learning this way. On the other hand, the HS teachers he would have are superb, and from what I hear the kids love being in their classes. He would like to do EPGY because he wants to move ahead quickly in math in order to be able to really learn physics. I think he needs more challenge than he had this year.

My (his) experience with EPGY has been at the elementary level - he did grades 1-7 (as well as having regular math classes at school that he always found too easy). I'm not sure what it would be like for him to learn HS math this way, and I'm interested in hearing from anyone with experience with courses at the HS and college level. I think if he were to go this way it would be a one-way street, because he's always gone quickly through the EPGY courses, even doing them only a few times a week, and if he were to do them every day at school he'd almost certainly get far ahead of the other kids. I don't really want him taking classes with kids who are too much older.

He is going to take the AMC-10 math tests next year with the HS kids.

MomOFour · 04-28-2006, 09:40 PM

My daughter is doing Algebra II through CTY distance learning. So far, so good. We're taking a wait and see approach as to what her next high school math course will be. I think the depth through CTY or EPGY distance learning is greater than what she would get in the regular classroom. My daughter has had a similar experience with her classmates needing a lot of review, even though it's an honors class.

marite · 04-28-2006, 10:05 PM

If your S is comfortable with EPGY and if the school is piloting it, I would say stick with EPGY. It will allow him to proceed at his own pace. We know a boy who took Honors Algebra as a 4th grader. The district dispatched a high school teacher to come to the elementary school to teach him (he was considered too young to go to the high school). The teacher said that the boy needed more accelerated math than his Honors 9th grader; and since the boy was a class of one, the teacher was able to provide the acceleration.

Donemom · 04-28-2006, 10:22 PM

My son did three university level math courses through EPGY during high school, and found that they were challenging but still manageable in the sense that he was still able to take a full load of h.s. classes. He did the EPGY courses from his home computer. We opted for EPGY because travelling to the nearest college campus would have conflicted with his extra-curricular commitments. When applying for college, we arranged to have Stanford send the transcripts to the various schools.

NYMomof2 · 04-28-2006, 10:22 PM

MomOFour,

I agree that the EPGY math courses are deeper and more rigorous than regular classes, at least in public schools. That's what my son believes, too. Is your daughter's CTY course the Stanford (EPGY) course, or is it the Thinkwell software?

Marite, I'm very impressed that your district sent a HS teacher to the elementary school for one student.

Donemom · 04-28-2006, 10:24 PM

Like in Marite's case, we were very fortunate in that our district gave our son individual tutoring until he was old enought to travel to the high school.

NYMomof2 · 04-28-2006, 10:25 PM

We posted simultaneously, Donemom. Thank you for your comment. I'm glad to hear that this worked out well, because I expect that my son will end up taking college-level courses while in HS, too, if he does EPGY.

MomOFour · 04-28-2006, 11:17 PM

My daughter is using the Thinkwell software for her Algebra II course through CTY. She's a freshman, taking geometry at school. What is a big unknown at this point is whether or not she will have a scheduling conflict if she skips ahead to precalc next year. If she ends up having to take Alg II in school next year, I'll have her continue as she desires with distance learning to keep her engaged with math, which she loves.

As for the Thinkwell lectures, she noted that they've really helped her to understand the reasoning behind concepts, something that isn't stressed as much in school. It's not just about knowing how to solve problems. This has made her downright giddy at times, much to my bemusement as I am so not a math person.

VTCor · 04-28-2006, 11:33 PM

If your son wants to take math at the high school, you may want to enroll him in EPGY physics B as soon as he finished algebra II. The natural sequence for science is physics, chemistry, then biology because each course builds on the prior one. Most public schools teach these courses in the reverse order because physics requires more math, which freshmen don't yet have.

NYMomof2 · 04-29-2006, 12:09 AM

VTCor, one of my sons motivations for wanting to get through the math more quickly is his desire to take physics. He's wanted to do this through EPGY for a while, and I plan to get the course for him at home, even if the school won't offer it to him.

MomOFour, my son had a similar comment about the difference between the EPGY courses he's had at home and his math classes at school - that with EPGY he understands the underlying concepts more thoroughly.

bobbobbob · 04-29-2006, 01:16 AM

I was in the same spot as your son 6 years ago. Took the SATs in 7th grade and got a 1210...went to CTY...took accelerated math and science classes and like yourself, i did not look well upon those who used tutors in order to do as well as i when it required minimal effort for me.

If your son can, I would suggest taking his regular advanced classes and then supplement that with the EPGY as much as he wants to do. If he develops a clear liking for one, then you will know which to focus upon.

my$0.02 · 04-29-2006, 02:29 AM

NYmom,

The EPGY self-paced math courses are excellent.

Your son should take the AMC 10 next year as it is the gateway exam to the AIME and USAMO exams. He would also be interested in the middle school Mathcounts program (www.mathcounts.org), where many of the future college mathematicians cut their teeth. The USA Math talent search (www.usamts.org) provides difficult, monthly problem sets to identify top math students.

The www.artofproblemsolving.com hosts discussions of interest to ambitious math and science students and also has online courses in specialized math topics. You will also find at the site an article entitled, "The calculus trap," which discusses the standard math curriculum and its inadequacies for top math students. (http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/R...A_Calculus.php)

NYMomof2 · 04-29-2006, 10:09 AM

my$0.02, thank you for the advice and the links. A couple of them are new to me, and I think they'll be helpful.

bobbobbob, my son already has a definite preference for the EPGY route, based on his experience with the K-7 math courses. He wants the faster pace and greater depth. My concern was that it might be a different experience taking EPGY for HS and college level courses, where the material is significantly different, and that it would be difficult to get back into classes later.

marite · 04-29-2006, 10:20 AM

NYMom:

There are actually more hs students taking EPGY classes than there are k-8 students, as high school offerings usually stop at AP-Calc while EPGY offers college-level courses (more and more as time goes on). It is not unlikely that your son will be able to take AP-Calc as a sophomore and thus would need to go back to taking EPGY classes anyway.
What is lost by doing EPGY is the collaborative learning experience. In k-12, this can be a real time-wasting experience, but in college, study groups are very effective.

EllenF · 04-29-2006, 10:58 AM

If a student follows EPGY's suggested schedule for high school courses, the pace is similar to that found in high schools, so I wouldn't call it faster paced. The suggested schedule for college level courses is somewhat slower than traditionally found in colleges. Of course, EPGY permits students to go faster (or slower if they pay more) than the suggested schedule.

EPGY does cover material in more depth than in most high schools, the main difference being EPGY's emphasis on learning concepts. A student who is dependent on his programmable calculator will probably not do well in EPGY math, since calculators on tests are limited to basic scientific calculators. The courses in a few outstanding high schools are probably as good as those at EPGY, but there aren't many truly outstanding high schools.

If I had to recommend a single EPGY math course, it would be geometry, which has a heavy dose of logic and is much different from traditional high school geometry courses. For students who love math, EPGY geometry is just plain fun. (The other fun course at EPGY is the grammar course. Dr. Conrad has a great sense of humor. My son laughed all the way through that course.)

I do not recommend taking EPGY simultaneously with regular math. That would be very boring and subject your poor son to lots of busy work. One thing you should check on, though, is whether your school's set-up with EPGY will use EPGY tutors or your school's teachers. If I understand the program, schools can get a substantial discount on fees if they don't use the EPGY tutors. However, EPGY math courses are heavy on proofs. Most high school teachers don't have the background in proofs that EPGY tutors do.

If your son decides to revert to regular classes after taking some EPGY courses, he will likely find the regular classes less intense, but probably won't find a great deal of overlap. After all, EPGY doesn't teach calculus in their geometry or pre-calc classes.