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No excuses

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Replies to: No excuses

  • HarvestMoon1HarvestMoon1 Registered User Posts: 5,911 Senior Member
    Drew said that he did grieve but found he soon needed structure and a routine away from the mourning. This is an approach that has worked for others.

    Joe Biden is a good example when he lost his first wife and infant daughter in a car accident a few days before Christmas in 1972. He threw himself back into work in order to cope. In fact he was sworn into the Senate at the bedside of his surviving son who was also injured in the car accident. He certainly coped quite well -- his life did not fall apart later on because he didn't grieve in a precise way dictated by others. He found his own way and it worked for him. He also continued serving as Vice President when his son Beau died.

    There simply is no set formula -- dealing with grief is a very personal thing and should be respected as such.
  • MaryGJMaryGJ Registered User Posts: 777 Member
    "dealing with grief is a very personal thing and should be respected" Agreed. But the article does not respect it...it exploits it for a false narrative.
  • moooopmoooop Registered User Posts: 1,558 Senior Member
    OK, and the false narrative is what? That a military education can help some people and not destroy their humanity? That a religious Midwesterner could possibly graduate #1 at a school on the Atlantic coast? That adversity can make some people stronger rather than weaker?
  • sylvan8798sylvan8798 Registered User Posts: 5,819 Senior Member
    Yes, there are many military personnel who return from war with PTSD. Some of them probably never had the mental toughness to deal with war in the first place and never should have gone. However, there are many more who fight the fight, witness atrocities, learn to deal with them, and go on to lead happy lives without any mental breakdowns. Some people are just more mentally tough than other people.
    This is the narrative that I find troubling. It seems like most posters here are not getting it, aside from MaryGJ and romani.
  • romanigypsyeyesromanigypsyeyes Registered User Posts: 32,161 Senior Member
    @sylvan8798 agreed. 20 vets commit suicide PER DAY. Some of the attitudes on this thread are exactly why they don't seek help.

    The message from some here is "Well, I guess you should've been tougher." Very sad.
  • moooopmoooop Registered User Posts: 1,558 Senior Member
    I don't get your reasoning. We aren't saying anybody who needs help after trauma is bad. Nobody has said anything even close to that. All we are saying is this guy is quite a tough and amazing person. Look, I think people who run marathons are amazing; that doesn't mean I think everyone who doesn't run marathons is a lazy bum.
  • sylvan8798sylvan8798 Registered User Posts: 5,819 Senior Member
    moooop, isn't the very title of the thread suggesting as much?
    {Wikipedia} In psychology and logic, rationalization or rationalisation (also known as making excuses[1]) is a defense mechanism in which controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable—or even admirable and superior—by plausible means.[2] It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.[3]
    barrons wrote:
    Just getting it done.
    Yeah, that certainly expresses the outcome we all admire. And in a way that suggests any other alternative is pretty namby pamby making excuses for yourself.

    As to tutumom2001 quote:
    Some of them probably never had the mental toughness to deal with war in the first place and never should have gone.
    Any time I have heard words to this effect, they were generally accompanied by a phrase such as "It's his own damn fault, he never should have gone there (or been doing that, etc.) in the first place." To me that places it back on the soldiers themselves.

    Not only are they weak, they should have known better than to get themselves in that situation. Our society looks down on weakness, particularly in men. Buck up, don't be a sissy. We also laud our soldiers as being the bravest of the brave. How are they to reconcile our expectations and their own expectations with their ultimate reality? Apparently, many of them can't.
  • moooopmoooop Registered User Posts: 1,558 Senior Member
    The " no excuses " line is a military mantra about getting the job done, and not giving in to the many obstacles that will surely get in your way...it doesn't refer to how one copes in the aftermath of getting the job done.

    When I showed up for my first training in the Navy, as soon as I got out of my car, 2 guys were in my face yelling "There are NO excuses!". It's the most important thing you have to learn.
  • tutumom2001tutumom2001 Registered User Posts: 526 Member
    "Any time I have heard words to this effect, they were generally accompanied by a phrase such as "It's his own damn fault, he never should have gone there (or been doing that, etc.) in the first place." To me that places it back on the soldiers themselves."

    Some of it does need to be put on the soldiers themselves. Not everyone is cut out to be a Marine, and anyone interested in joining any branch of the US military should know their limitations. I do think some people join hoping to get their college education paid for without realizing what they're getting into. The US military is not for the weak, both in mind and body. You have to remember that these men and women are being trained to fight in battle. At VMI, they are being trained to be officers. An officer needs to have a level head and be able to keep their emotions in check. Every person fighting in any battle in any war is depending on his or her commanding officer to hold it together and lead. If that person doesn't have the mental toughness to handle the stress, then a career as a military officer is not for them. That doesn't make them "weak" or a bad person, just not the right person for this particular job.

  • sylvan8798sylvan8798 Registered User Posts: 5,819 Senior Member
    smh

    No wonder it's this bad. :(
  • tutumom2001tutumom2001 Registered User Posts: 526 Member
    An interesting article in the Boston Globe about PTSD. One research study has found that there are, indeed, some predictors.

    "Telch’s work is part of a provocative new strand of PTSD research, using modern psychology and computer science to unlock why and when a traumatic experience can derail a life. These studies—not just in military but civilian populations, too, testing cops and other first responders—hold the potential to transform our understanding of PTSD, changing it from an enigmatic and disruptive affliction that crashes over some people but not others, to a condition that can actually be predicted, quantified, and prepared for."

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2012/06/02/who-will-get-ptsd/CP8rQguZ5YW3PgUfM3qFoL/story.html
  • sylvan8798sylvan8798 Registered User Posts: 5,819 Senior Member
    ^You're trying too hard.
  • compmomcompmom Registered User Posts: 8,082 Senior Member
    I think that all points of view in this thread should be honored. I completely understand where Mary GJ is coming from. and it can be courageous to speak out.

    I was also a high achiever after a parent's suicide, and paid for it over years because, due to various circumstances, I could not grieve properly in the first place. Anger is another stage that can get skipped over in the name of positivity.

    That said, there are people- let's call them efficient mourners- who can truly move forward relatively soon, who continue their lives and achievements in a way that does not constitute running.

    I have a broader problem with what I once saw termed "inspiration porn." Human interest stories that distort in order to present a narrative that inspires, basically making use of a person with challenges.

    There is a lot of pressure in our culture to "be positive." We are supposed to get over grief, loss and illness quickly, or people lose interest and stay away. This pressure to be positive can really be harmful and this story kind of adds to that pressure.

    No matter what your opinion, we don't know this person, and I just hope the discussion can be open to insights from all sides.
  • romanigypsyeyesromanigypsyeyes Registered User Posts: 32,161 Senior Member
    @compmom I'm very sorry for your loss.

    I agree that people mourn differently.

    I also agree with the positivity and inspiration porn. One of my favorite quotes about positivity comes from Stella Young, a disabled disability rights advocate: "No amount of smiling at a flight of stairs has ever made it turn into a ramp." It sums up my feelings on the whole "keep your chin up" thing.
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