Qualified, but cut, what now?

[JeepMOM]

excellent ^^^ MOMOF5

[cptofthehouse]

I do want to share with you that our oldest son's college counselor was a "son of a gun", to put it nicely. He was gruff, did not sugar coat anything and he got many complaints about his lack of manners. However, no parent or student missed out on any info regarding colleges, unless they deliberately stopped up their ears. He was right on top of the SAT2 timing. He had info on all the test prep centers in the area, his reception area was filled floor to ceiling with college catalogues and books. He kept track of where each student was accepted, what hooks they had, and gave the info to families junior year so they could get a good idea what kids with their student's stats got in college responses. He was on the phone to fight for kids on the border line or who really wanted a school for a particular reason that was out of the box, and was successful beyond what that highschool's profile should have rendered. He was also aggressive and informative about merit awards and info on what colleges were stingy, and which ones were generous. He got in more state U kids than most school, even kids with borderline stats, by hand harping on the importance of getting those apps in early---he was right on the ball when the apps were available and he rushed them right to admissions so they had every advantage in the time factor. He did not give personal feelings or opinions, but backed up anything he said with facts. Not many parents or kids liked him but they were grateful and had a lot of respect for him. I would take him anyday over someone who is sweet, nice and friendly, but did not know what he should about applying to colleges.

[momrath]

Peege, I’ve just had a moment to read through this thread. I think you’ve received a mountain of good advice, so mine may be just so much extraneous information but I’ll add my comments.

I am a University of Michigan alumna and my son attends a top rated liberal arts school. Even though Michigan was and is an excellent college in many, many ways it was the wrong school at the wrong time for me. I survived, but comparing my son’s experience to mine is like comparing lightning to lightning bugs, not because of the quality of the schools, but because of the fit. I therefore can understand how a kid whose idea of a good fit college is the University of Chicago would feel deflated by the thought of attending Big U. I have nothing against the University of Minnesota and I believe that it is an excellent choice for a lot of students; however, if you and your son feel it doesn’t suit his personal learning style, then you’re most likely right.

Second, I’d say that you and your son were sadly ignorant (and I mean that in the pure sense of the word, naïve and unknowing) about how the system works. He didn’t have a balanced list and his “safety” wasn’t a true safety since he didn’t really want to go there. You didn’t know where to turn for advice and the advice you received was inadequate. To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld “You now know that there were unknown unknowns. Things that you didn’t know that you didn’t know.”

You are all older and wiser now, so what to do?

My opinion would be to consider taking a gap year and re-applying. At the end of August this comes as a fairly radical proposal, but I agree with those who say that it’s easier to get in to a selective school as a firstyear than as a transfer. Also, a gap year (which is really 15 months) is not an easy proposition in itself. It’s lonely, challenging to organize and can be expensive. It takes a lot of drive and initiative for it to be successful. But, having said that, when gap years are good, they are wonderful.

At this point in the process, I can certainly understand that you’d hesitate to slam on the breaks and turn down a difficult and uncharted path, If the gap year option appeals to you and your son, you’ll get plenty of advice here on how to structure a successful year and simultaneously how to put together a good application list and how to craft the application.

In addition to Andison’s success story with this approach I’d also direct you to research the story of another poster, Nopoisonivy. His son decided too late in the game that he wanted an academically strong school instead of an art school. Took a gap year, reapplied and is now happy at Princeton.

Just to clarify,however. I’m not convinced that reapplying to the SAME schools that rejected or waitlisted is feasible (although it worked for Nopoisonivy’s son). I would instead suggest a new list that covers a good balance of reaches, matches and real, viable surebets.

In answer to your question: “Despite Rugg's Recommendations, we think the U of M is much better for a science major than some of these small, albeit exclusive, liberal arts colleges. Are we wrong?” Yes, you are wrong. Concentrate on fit, not ratings. There are dozens of LACs that have profoundly good science departments with plenty of research opportunities and excellent track records of getting students into top graduate programs.

If in the end, your family feels that it’s too late (or too costly) to change course, then I believe that your son will do okay. I’d start a new thread now about your second child and get on the right track now. Four years ago, we were also hopelessly “ignorant.” For my son, things worked out, mainly because we did a whole lot of extensive research and learned the ropes in a timely manner. For your son, it’s not timely, but, hey, he’s only 17! It’s not too late.

Good luck and let us know how things work out.

[peege04]

Momrath, got a kick out of your posting and the Rumsfeld quote. How apt!

I think one of our biggest mistakes was not recognizing how gifted our son was. We knew the competition was tough and thought with 15,000 National Merit Finalists and adding in all the special cases (athletes, alums, kids with significant research achievements or other achievements) it was a long shot. I only started to feel bad, when he also won the scholarship award from National Merit, which narrowed the base down to 2500. You start to think, hmmm, one of only 2500, and there are quite a few "top" spots (at least 1000 fresh admits at each school) and then the odds look quite different and you think, why not my kid? By then, the applications (and probably inadequate essays) were all mailed.

The U of Chicago was really great. Our son visited Harvard, Columbia, MIT and others, but liked Chicago best, so I'm sure it's still in the back of his mind. But looking over all the advice and knowing our son and just being super practical people, we're not going to choose the gap year option.

With all the benefits he's getting from the U Honors program and the value of the scholarships, it's just an offer that's too good to pass up. As rational parents, we probably would have preferred the U of M over Chicago, unless the costs were similar. As you point out, the big unknown is the "feel."

Having met some of the other honors students at the U, I think he'll find plenty of intellectual stimulation. He'll have to be responsible for his own attitude and how he chooses to proceed. And we'll be hoping for lightning bugs, not lightning. If it doesn't work out, I guess I'll be back here for more advice.

In the interim, maybe our story will help others.

Thanks again.

[Northstarmom]

Peege,
I would bet that a reason that your S got NM scholarship $ was because of his proposed choice of major: physics. Most of the NM scholarships that aren't designed for NM scholars whose parents work at sponsoring companies are sponsored by companies that are hoping to support more American scientists, something that is increasingly hard to find.

NM finalists who are planning on being things like English teachers or social workers don't have as much chance of getting those corporate-sponsored scholarships as do students planning to be hard scientists.

All of this also reflects why if your S does well in physics virtually anywhere, he'd have a decent shot at getting wonderful fellowships to excellent graduate programs.

[sjmom2329]

Peege, as I've posted earlier, your son has a wonderful opportunity at the U of M. He must, indeed, be very bright, and will need all of his talents to succeed in physics. It's certainly a challenging field, not for the faint of heart!

I'd like to offer a comment on one aspect of your posts, because it's something that may apply to many other students and families who read this thread. You say, "...I think one of our biggest mistakes was not recognizing how gifted our son was. We knew the competition was tough and thought with 15,000 National Merit Finalists and adding in all the special cases (athletes, alums, kids with significant research achievements or other achievements) it was a long shot."

I feel that there is a belief expressed here, that high scores on standardized tests should be enough to qualify for any elite college. The reality, as others have mentioned, is that high scores are merely an entry criterion. The National Merit semi-finalist status, for example, is based on the PSAT taken in Junior year. The cutoff varies significantly by state. So, for example, the cutoff in 2005 for MN was 215 but the cutoff for Maryland or Massachusetts was 222. Does that make a student who scores 216 in Minnesota brighter or more deserving than one who achieves the same score in Maryland?
National Merit Cutoff

As I mentioned, the reason for my post is to focus on the idea that college admissions is not based solely on SAT or PSAT scores. For students to rely on this one measure is to set them up for disappointment. From a parenting standpoint, I also believe it is a mistake to communicate to young people that their value is determined by this one measure of the aptitude and ability. Hard work and motivation are much more important than native intelliegence (once a threshold has been reached) to success in any given field. As a parent of a high scoring student, I can tell you that it's not enough to just do well in high school and on SATs to be successful in tough disciplines. My son did score very well on both SAT I and SAT II's, but I'm sure he'd tell you that his honors physics series and upper division math classes have been pretty challenging this last year! I had to adjust my expectations about his grades, and realize that an A- or B+ in some of these classes was quite an accomplishment.

Finally, the real issue for most kids is not just getting INTO a selective college, but being successful once they enroll. The level of intellectualism and achievement really is VERY high, and even very bright students may find it difficult -- I think that a student who isn't really prepared may find the struggle to be too much. This is why I think that colleges do place some value on SAT II scores and AP exams -- they tend to show that a student really is ready for the demands of a tough major at an elite college.

I bring this up more to warn other parents than to suggest that this was your only criteria for judging your son's abilities -- he does sound like a very bright student, and I wish you all well.

[peege04]

NSM, this was not a corporate sponsored scholarship. To quote National Merit:

"All Finalists are being considered for one of the 2,500 single-payment National Merit $2500 Scholarships that will be offered on a state representational basis."

Then it goes on to say:

"Finalists who meet preferential criteria of a company or business sponsor will be considered for one of about 1,100 corporate-sponsored Merit Scholarship awards."

Wouldn't it be a corporate sponsored scholarship that you are referring to? or does ones choice of major influence the more selective state representational award too?

[Northstarmom]

Yes, I was referring to the corporate one.

As for the state one, I imagine that choice of major and where one lives would influence the choice. There probably is an interest in particularly supporting students in majors deemed very important and hard to fill. There also probably is interest in making awards throughout the state. I imagine there's politics involved in the selections.

[calmom]

Peege, I think on the other end of the spectrum, you read a little bit too much into the NM scholarship award. It IS an honor and one that your son should be rightfully proud of, but the NM committee makes the decision on very limited information before them (grades, test scores, a letter from the school g.c. or principal, a very short essay from the applicant). Colleges have an overlapping but different set of information. National Merit is very highly regarded for colleges that are a notch below your son's target schools in terms of competitiveness. For example, your son would almost certainly have been admitted at Macalester, which actively recruits NM finanalists (and where of course he also is a legacy).

I guess an analogy would be this: if your son won $100,000 in a lottery, he'd feel rich. You would all celebrate. No one could deny that $100,000 was a lot of money. But let's say he decided that he would use that money to pay for 4 years of college -- he would find that the money is more than enough to pay for his attendance at the public university, but not nearly enough to pay for 4 years at Harvard, not because $100,000 isn't a lot of money, but because 4 years at Harvard happens to cost $200,000

So what your son has is lot of intellectual and academic capital, that will get him very far in life and certainly was more than enough to get him into almost any college, except for tiny eschelon of highly competitive schools that want more. And the frustrating part is that the more that was needed for the very top schools is slippery and intangible.

[peege04]

NSM, yes. I think you're right. National Merit is very devoted to dispersing their recipients throughout the states. That's a "given" in their criteria.

Though not a "given," from what I see, it looks like they try to avoid concentrating the 2500 they pick (52 in Minnesota) in any one school. I only have the Minnesota list to base this on.

To other responders, there were more than SAT scores involved. You need an essay and a list of activities and the school writes a recommendation (which you do not see).

When I talked to the National Merit people, they said a committee of Admissions officers from different colleges and universities make the choices. They said all the applicants' test scores are considered: PSATs and SATs (I don't know about ACTs - I think not and I don't think SAT II's either).

Our son's high school had 2 of the 52 in our state. The top private school in our area had 0 and the top public school in the state had 1. Don't know if that is useful information or not.

[marite]

Peege:

While NM scholar status is a great achievement, I do not know how much store top colleges set by it. After all, it is essentially based on a test taken early in junior year. I believe that at the colleges my S applied to, there was no space for writing down PSAT score (I could be wrong). SAT scores are taken into account by NM only to confirm the PSAT score, I believe.

At any rate, this whole discussion is moot. U of MN is a good uni and it sounds like it has a good physics department. I would be very surprised if your son exhausted the resources there. The only question would be of "fit", but that is something that he can gauge more accurately after spending time there.

[peege04]

Oh and I think I've said before and I'll repeat, to me the factor that I think is more important is the curiousity factor and pursuing some particular interest.

Somewhere in here I read about a kid who collected civil war figurines and the extent to which he devoted his time and energies to that. I can understand why colleges are intrigued by and accept students like that.

OTOH, since our son is interested in science and we're parents with no science background at all, we really were not equipped to provide him with the tools to explore that area. Reading that recent article on the Duke kid: his dad's a nuclear chemist and he invents a fuel cell. Don't you think the two are related? Would that kid have invented the fuel cell if his dad had been in sales, like my husband is? I think the likelihood goes way down. Possible yes. Extremely unlikely, even bigger yes.

[curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by OP

Reading that recent article on the Duke kid: his dad's a nuclear chemist and he invents a fuel cell. Don't you think the two are related? Would that kid have invented the fuel cell if his dad had been in sales, like my husband is? I think the likelihood goes way down. Possible yes. Extremely unlikely, even bigger yes.

What do you want to bet Princeton and Yale found it conveniently coincidental, too?

Edit: I decided that my chuckle was inappropriate. I removed it. I did chuckle, because I was thinking the same thing as the OP. But hey, it could have been legit. It could happen.

[sjmom2329]

Peege, the point that I was trying to make is that I think you are setting too much store by the NM/PSAT award. For the parents who have kids at selective schools, it didn't take a single test in high school to determine that the kid needed a great deal of intellectual stimulation. These kids don't have to be persuaded to pursue activities like the fuel cell example you cited. Maybe it helps to have such a resource at home, but most kids are just too independent to pursue one of mom or dad's interests. These kids actively seek out the opportunity to "push the envelope."

The kids at my son's college (where the median SAT for his entering class was 1470 or something, including athletes and legacies) are ALL high achieving kids. I doubt that their parents had to talk them into preparing for SAT II's -- most of these kids scored several 800's on SAT I's and SAT II's. But that's not all there is to their stories. They sought out research opportunities at local universities, had internships at businesses based on their unique talents, published poetry, played in regional orchestras etc. Please understand that I'm not trying to demean your son's accomplishment. But as Calmom says, there is just something extra at the U of Chicago or Ivy level.

[peege04]

SJMom, the culture is different here in the midwest. If the culture around you consists of kids doing all kinds of research things over the summer and taking preparation for SAT II's, then you're going to look at those things more closely. Very little of that here. Maybe the girl who got into MIT from our school did that, but no one else. Incidentally she was not the other scholarship winner from our school, but she obviously knew what she needed and got that edge. My son does not resent her, thinks she's really smart and deserving. I don't know anything about her family, but I did hear rumors that she had started taking PSATs in middle school, so they obviously were planning on this for a long time.

As to summer research programs, our son had to take Physical Education one summer and Health another summer because you must have these to graduate in Minnesota. With a six period day and 2 foreign languages each year, this was the only way he could get it all in. Is there a way to get around these things? Yes, and it's extremely complicated, requiring LOTS of parent involvement. I checked. Too much for us.

My posts may give the impression of sour grapes and I have to say we're really happy. However I am not going to back off the position that there are lots of kids getting advantages that the average kid does not have. If your Dad is a nuclear chemist, that's a big edge. C'mon, get real.