Qualified, but cut, what now?

[Alumother]

Students who are willing to work like that to get to their dream schools aren't pushed into this by parents. This is just the way that such students are made. Most people, no matter how smart, aren't made like that, which is perfectly fine as long as they realize that their options will probably be more limited than those of people who are more driven to work and research to achieve their own high goals.

And some kids who work like that actually don't do it to get into the dream schools. And they don't even have goals or ambitions that they can articulate. They just get bored and drive their parents crazy if they aren't out in the world or deep in their interests doing all that stuff. I guess what I mean is that some kids are shot out of a cannon at birth. If they don't find research opportunities in 9th grade they do Moot Court or run the newspaper or they start tutoring kids and then they realize that the program could be run better so they start their own version or they invent a program at the local hospital to deal with Spanish-speaking patients etc.

As a parent of one shot from a cannon and one still lazing in a metaphorical clear pool in a metaphorical green and sparkling meadow, let me be clear. Some bloom early. Enjoy it and support it. Some bloom late. Enjoy it and support it. There is nowhere anywhere any data I know of that says that one type of kid has a better type of life than the other type of kid - by the time they both get to be 28. Or 35. Or 50.

[Northstarmom]

"And some kids who work like that actually don't do it to get into the dream schools. And they don't even have goals or ambitions that they can articulate. They just get bored and drive their parents crazy if they aren't out in the world or deep in their interests doing all that stuff. "

Yeah, and their grades also may suck big time. (Parent of kids who work hard -- in the things that they like, which usually aren't academics!).

"There is nowhere anywhere any data I know of that says that one type of kid has a better type of life than the other type of kid - by the time they both get to be 28. Or 35. Or 50."

True. Most people aren't Ivy grads, millionaire executives, etc. ,but most people have reasonably happy lives. Going to an Ivy, making lots of money, getting lots of attention for one's vocational success -- none of those things mean that a person is happy or fulfilled. Neither money nor name brands nor having jobs that others look up to results in happiness, which comes from inside, not externals.

"Success" also relates to one's own definition.

[katwkittens]

NSM-

Oh you are so right!!! CC has been, by far, the biggest "advantage" my kiddos have had. For years and I do mean, YEARS, it has gotten us through 4 kiddo's app years and my first has graduated and is off to grad school.

All with CC's help. And in particular this forum and all its many wonderful posters! We didn't know how to fill out a FAFSA or what it was, couldn't locate the Common App at school, didn't know about SAT IIs, LACs, merit aid vs. need, scholarships, service academy appointments...

The list is endless. CC helped with all.

Kat
(don't think I have said Thank You recently)

[peege04]

NSM I like what you have to say in both posts. I too feel our son has advantages that others don't have. It's just that others have more advantages too.

We come to these perspectives over years of experiences and different cultural backgrounds, so it's not surprising that there are a lot of different viewpoints. I have respect for people who disagree with me, but I'm not persuaded by some of them.

I am strongly in agreement with your statements that the vast majority of students applying have far fewer advantages than yours and mine (and the children represented by the parents here? can we agree on that?) After all, the parents here have the time to be on this site. Most families are living paycheck to paycheck, both working and running around at night to get everything else done. I want fairness for those people too, that's all. I know the colleges add points for no college grads, URM, probably some other things too. It's just far more complicated than that, is all I'd like to say. Some disadvantages get a boost, others don't. Some advantages count against you, others don't. All in all, it's a pretty good system, but could be improved.

Most other countries do give heavier weight to test scores than our country. Even though that might benefit our son, I don't think that's necessarily the best solution either. As you say, our son could have taken more initiative. I think he realizes that now and we'll see if he applies that knowledge in college.

BTW, even though he is smart, there are plenty of "off the chart" geniuses out there who start college as youngsters and could run rings around him. So I don't have any illusions that he's that "special."

[reeses414]

I think everyone has advantages (in different ways of course) in getting into college and in life in general. The person just needs to figure out what they are and whether or not he/she wants to push them to their limits. For example, this summer, I have been working with my Spanish instructor from last year in order to improve my writing skills. I would write journal entries in Spanish, and he would read them, correct them, and explain why my mistakes were what they were. Of course, I didn't have to do this "work" during my summer vacation (and, of course, he didn't need to teach me during the summer if he didn't want to do so). I could have just relaxed and enjoyed the fact that I had survived my first year at college. (I did well in my classes.) However, I didn't want to do this. I wanted to keep my skills polished instead of losing them during a four month long break. I also wanted to improve, which is exacted what I did in the long run and even made a stronger, personal connection with an instructor in a field, which I am interested. By taking advantage of the offer to help me during the summer months, I think I created many opportunities for myself. (I knew this instructor already as I had him as a teacher both semesters last year.)

The same is true with college admissions. There are many places in the community in which one can receive help (in and outside of the high school). The applicant just needs to seek them.

[JeepMOM]

CPTofthehouse - your post #182 is awesome!! Lucky folks you are to have a GC who really really cares - and gets the job done - there should be more like that

[sybbie719]

I know the colleges add points for no college grads, URM, probably some other things too.

Show me a school that has a "point" system and gives extra points.

There are no "points" given. These things are tip factors which are taken into consideration with other things. Many selective schools do take a holstic approach to admissions which basically says that those who much have been given, much is required and students are looked at in relation to the opportunites they have had and whether or not they have taken advantage of those opportunities. Yes a school will wink at the SAT scores of a first gen student because they may have not had the "benefit' of having a parent attend college, but first gerneration college student "tip" also looks at other factors such as poverty and low performing schools because first generation college students are more likely to experience this.

College admissions is not now nor has it even been a straight up numbers things because of disparity in education in this country and not everyone brings the same thing do the table. A kid who scores a 1380 despite being at an underperforming school where less than 50% of its students graduate and very few are admitted to 4 year schools, is the first in his/her family to attend college, that works an afterschool job to help add to the family income, maybe the translator for the family and still manages to get a 4.0 in the most rigerous curriculum that his/her particular school offers, and manages to give back to others is probably going to be looked at more favorably than a student who comes from a middle class background with 2 college educated parents, won't cut pies and simply rest upon his/her laurels that they can get good grades with minimal effort who scored the same 1380 withthe benefit of prep classes.

Overall what colleges do is try to build a class that is aligned with its institutional mission. So while it is great to have rocket scientists and a student who is great in physics, it is equally important to have artists, dancers, musicians, english majors, rich kids, poor kids, city kids, blacks, whites, hispanics, asians and everything in between because learning takes place both inside and outside of the classroom and it helps to enhance the experience.

I don't think you can expect your son to move forward because you have not moved forward. While consciously you may think you have I don't think you have fully reconciled your self to the fact that what has been done is done. One of the best lessons I learned in college was when one of my professors came straight out and said "sometimes you gotta know what is your *****, and I had to say to myself, Jane (her name), this is your ***** and something you gotta work out.

The net-net is that you have to simply come to terms as to what is his stuff and what is your stuff. It's okay to say "this is me", for you to have your stuff, issues, schisms, whatever, but ya gotta own it.

You already know what options are available; have kid go to college, take a gap year and apply all over again, transfer. You can choose to either curse the darkness or light a candle and move on.

[sjmom2329]

Northstarmom, Sybbie and Kat have said what I would have said if I were a better writer!!!

Kids are evaluated in the context of their opportunities. I DID live in the Minneapolis are until five years ago (my kids took the SAT in junior high, as part of the talent search program), and I know many students who are now in college from that time. Some did go to selective/Ivies. They were the kids that, like Alumother says, you just couldn't hold back. I do know someone whose kid thought he was a sure thing for Harvard a few years ago. After all, he was the valedictorian and had SATs in the mid 1400's. His parents were appalled when he didn't get in. They, too, seemed to believe that a particular score on one test was the golden ticket. What many parents here are trying to tell you, is that it's not enough to be bright.

Also, my son's college has students from every state. The kids I spoke of, regarding research etc, are from all over the country. The issue is what does any particular student do to enrich their lives. They won't all do research or publish poetry or work for software companies in HS. But they will find something to challenge themselves outside of school.

My discomfort with some of your posts is what I perceive to be the implication that kids who do get into elite colleges did so through family wealth or connections, and that's just not true. (most of the time!) Knowing the kids I know from my son's HS and college, the kids that get into the most selective schools ABSOLUTELY belong there. Unfortunately, there are many other kids who also "deserve" to get in, but don't due to limited space. The really bright kid just moves on, and makes a contribution wherever they end up.

[latetoschool]

SJMom, the last sentence of your post reminds me of a young man in my daughter's high school class. He had a horrendous childhood - mother jailed in another country for fraud, father disabled, unable to work, no money. He was able to attend the catholic high school because some people pieced together his tuition. He didn't have ANY advantages at all in terms of SAT prep tests, etc.

He was accepted to Notre Dame, but could not enroll, simply could not come up with any money at all. He had also applied to a local fourth tier college as a safety. One of those places that probably doesn't appear on anyone's list, unless it's the last stop before community college. And he was so happy and excited to go!!! He couldn't wait to get to college and get started, and, when we were talking to him mid-August, you could just tell that in his mind, this fourth tier school was every bit as exciting and interesting to him as if it were Princeton, etc.

We haven't kept up with him, but, I'm sure he's doing fantastic.

[lderochi]

College admissions is not now nor has it even been a straight up numbers things because of disparity in education in this country and not everyone brings the same thing do the table

I would *slightly* disagree with this. At certain schools, certainly not the most selective, admissions IS numbers driven with respect to acceptance -- if you have a certain GPA/SAT/ACT combination you're in. But that doesn't mean it's an automatic rejection if you don't meet the automatic entry numbers.

[sybbie719]

You're right lderochi, I should have said for admissions to many of the selective schools as many of the public schools are a straight numbers process with very few "soft" factors taken into consideration while some schools will grant you an automatic admissions with a certain set of numbers.

My bad because most of the times these debates never come up unless they are talking about admissions to selective/elite schools so I just assumed that's where the discussion was going as OP and son felt bad about not getting in U of Chicago (but hey, on the other thread a kid got a fullride to Duke and is stillbeing picked apart so you can't make everybody happy).

In selective admissions, your numbers can take you to committee, but the discussions will be about what is behind the numbers.

I would recommend that OP watches the video- The Best and the Brightest about what goes on in the admissions process at Amherst

http://pbs-newshour.virage.com/cgi-b...et:pbsnh062204

In addition, I would also recommend she read the Recipe for Success

5,822 extremely qualified applicants. 540 places in the Class of 2009.
11 admission officers (at Williams) balancing scores of priorities from the campus community.

http://www.williams.edu/alumni/alumn...l05/recipe.pdf

[coureur]

>>Show me a school that has a "point" system and gives extra points.

There are no "points" given. These things are tip factors which are taken into consideration with other things. Many selective schools do take a holstic approach to admissions....<<

I'll show you one. UC Davis:

http://admissions.ucdavis.edu/admiss...on_process.cfm

They use points. And you can score extra points for things like being a first generation college student. UCSD does also (although different from UCD's system), and if denied, students can even call UCSD admissions and ask and will be told how may points they scored and how far short that was of the admit cut-off. I'm sure other schools use points too but aren't quite so open about it as the UCs.

[sybbie719]

I know that we are getting into semantics, but we both know when the OP was talking about a point system, she was not referring to the UC (which are pretty straight forward with letting people know the rubric they use for admissions) and I believe you also knew what I was talking about when I responded to her post. And even with the UC point system, her son would more likely to be in a position to score more "points" than the groups that she believes are getting points at other schools.


So I guess I should modify my question again, to show me a selective private top USNWR 25 College or university (specifically the schools that OP says her son did not make the cut for) that uses a point system which gives extra points to students who URMs, first generation students and some other things too?

[citygirlsmom]

can't remember what book, but the admissions person who wrote it talks about the selectives schools point system

552345, that kind of thing

ponts for scores, points for essays, etc

the points may not be "official", but they are usedm otherwise why even ask race, parents education if they don't count

as I said, maybe no official #, but it is there

[sjmom2329]

Like Sybbie, I don't believe that the most selective colleges use a point system. I don't agree with Peege04 that "...the colleges add points for no college grads, URM, probably some other things too." As I've said before, the kids I've met at a couple of different Ivy schools/MIT are all remarkable, regardless of ethnic background or gender. I do believe that colleges take a student's background into consideration -- so a student from an inner city HS is not expected to have quite the same board scores as one from an east coast Prep school. Isn't that fair? There's that old saying, "To whom much is given, much is expected."