Qualified, but cut, what now? - Page 7

peege04 · 08-22-2006, 04:24 PM

Replying to BTM: My husband and I are in the anti-helicopter parent group which probably explains why we didn't do a lot of the things you mentioned (or rather get our son to do them). As I said, this was his goal, not ours. We were/are not pushy parents. We do not require our son to study. We do not limit his TV/recreational activities. We do not program his extra curricular day. We do not check any of his homework, etc. We give him a tremendous amount of autonomy.

We do try to advise him, but it is just that--advice. He is gifted in Math and I advised him for years to join the Math team, but he chose to ignore the advice. We advised him to use some preparation for the SAT II also, which he ignored. There are other things we advised that he ignored too. Like many bright kids, there is a failure of arrogance on his part. I don't want to convey the idea that he is perfect. If he had followed some of our advice, I have no doubt he might have improved his odds. Our younger child follows our advice, which makes it easier.

However even without following our counsel, he was extremely qualified and is dealing with his disappointment. I think it's a bit like the grieving process...denial, anger, etc.

For me, it's been encouraging to find parents who agree that he will find a lot to offer at the U of M. It's also been great to hear from him that he is prepared to work hard once again (I've been asking him this on and off all summer and only got a response today). And it's also helpful to gather information for transferring if we need to do that.

With all the scholarship money he would forfeit by going with a gap year, I don't think that's a really good idea for him. For example the National Merit Scholarship is only good if you start that year.

Thanks for your response.

blossom · 08-22-2006, 04:29 PM

Pegee, majoring in physics anywhere is a good wake up call for kids who don't like to take advice. It's a bit of a jump into the deep end... regardless of how thorough the HS preparation was. Your son will quickly learn how to go to professors for help; use TA's to review problem sets; lean on his advisor for course selection and how to balance heavily quant classes with ones that give him a bit of a breather, etc.

Sounds like he's got a fun, challenging year ahead of him!

MallomarCookie · 08-22-2006, 04:31 PM

Minnesota is a good school. And he has a good chance of getting a high GPA and getting into a good grad school--which is MUCH more valuable.

tokenadult · 08-22-2006, 04:32 PM

Re: btm in post 86: lots of kids in Minnesota are that ignorant about the selective college admission process, because lots of teachers and counselors in public high schools in Minnesota are that ignorant. I had a completely useless, no, worse than useless, counselor when I was in high school in Minnesota. The best thing that parents can do in lots of parts of the country is engage in self-help. And they may not realize how much they need self-help until they discover a Web site like this.

fizik · 08-22-2006, 04:34 PM

It seems to me a case of really bad college application planning and arrogance. You felt that he is too qualified. If your son wanted to major in Physics, why in the world did he take SATII in chemistry (and scored really low) instead? As a physicist, I would like to caution you and him: if he did not feel comfortable with SAT II Physics test, physics might not be his area to start with. If he put physics as a tentative major on his application, top colleges expected him to take Math IIc and Physics and get 800 on both plus 800 on a history/literature as well.

peege04 · 08-22-2006, 04:34 PM

I've got to log out, but will check this tomorrow. Thank you again to the many people who replied with helpful information. This was great.

shennie · 08-22-2006, 04:37 PM

btm: I will answer some for the poster, if I may. Here in the midwest, we tend to think about college differently. Many, many students apply to state schools or attend LACs in the midwest region. It is not common for midwest students to apply to Ivy League schools. In fact, it is often seen as strange for families to send kids to private out of state schools when there are so many lower cost state schools to choose from in the region.

Midwest students don't usually take the SAT, and even fewer bother with SAT IIs. High schools, even really good ones, don't always have the information about these tests or how to advise kids about taking them. In addition, test prep is not particularly common in this part of the country. There are not many independent college counselors. (I haven't found a one in my city - Madison.) The idea of "packaging" an applicant is also a rather foreign concept as well. I am not making excuses for anyone, it is just a bit of a different culture here.

Peege - your story makes perfect sense to me. Midwest kids certainly get admitted to high end colleges all the time, and, to be honest, I am surprised by the waitlists at Northwestern and Chicago. But I am not at all surprised that this whole process seems a bit of a puzzle to you. My advise for you regarding your younger son is to keep reading this board, but learn to liberally sift what you read. There is a lot of inaccurate and spurious information here, but there is some great stuff here as well. There are a number of posters who will be able to help you. Hang in there.

And finally, your son will be fine. He will either find a way to fit in at UM or he will decide to transfer. But he is bright and talented and with a reasonable amount of determination, he will be very successful.

bobby100 · 08-22-2006, 05:05 PM

To be frank, it doesn't sound like your son was as qualified as your original post made him sound. With the info you later add it becomes more clear that he didn't have a chance at most of his schools. Applying to Caltech for physics without a physics SATII and a low chem one is just unheard of. SATIIs are a piece of cake for top students. That he didn't go to a community college ot take online classes when his school didn't offer AP science is also huge. He could have applied to RSI and other free summer programs as well.

I think an important lesson here is that the kids getting in to the top schools have a history of going above and beyond what the local high school offers. Those who truly love learning have many ways beyond school to stretch. I would advise your son that shining at U of M or anywhere is going to mean being proactive in seeking opportunities.

tokenadult · 08-22-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

He could have applied to RSI and other free summer programs as well.

I'm now sure what high school he went to, and one thing he was up against is that one of his classmates did go to RSI last summer. He was from an exceptionally strong graduating class at an exceptionally strong high school (but, all the same, a high school with underwhelming college application counseling), so he had more work to do than most to stand out in his local context.

xiggi · 08-22-2006, 05:42 PM

FWIW, I believe that it serves little purpose to dissect the past and find faults in the guidance the student obtained. It is possible that he -or his advisers- misjudged the difficiulty or the odds of landing a spot at a highly selective school. That is just the way it works, and it helps to think about the 30,000 valedictorians or thousands of quasi-perfect SAT scorers who are left with the inability to understand why they were not chosen. Single digit admission rates are simply ... brutal.

What is important is to move forward and avoid getting caught in a web of unwarranted optimism. Agreeing to work hard --and maybe demonstrate that the outcome was a bit harsh-- is a great step in the right direction. It is, however, easier to recommend setting aside the past and the disappointment than to do it.

Best wishes for continuing success at UofMN.

micromom · 08-22-2006, 05:49 PM

tokenadult, I don't understand why an exceptionally strong high school like that does not offer any AP sciences.

JeepMOM · 08-22-2006, 05:54 PM

PEEGE his 4 year effort certainly has been rewarded and paid off - quite well as a matter of fact - maybe not in the direction he wanted - or thinks he wanted - but there are those out there - with good credentials - who did not do nearly as well as your son has - especially $$$ wise.

His immaturity is winning out - and he is just at the beginning of his college career - there is much out there for him to pursue - and could be even bigger and better than if he had gone to a ''better school - ie - 'ivy''' - and financially - he has done better than most 'ivy' students...................... maybe he really needs to give this a chance and count his blessings for a while before he makes any definite decision regarding the negatives of his college experience.

He does have the choice to re-apply and transfer - and I hope he understands the consequences that can occur in the event. But........ if he can get himself over this hump - he may realize what is really out there - and all the benefits that his 'back-up' school can provide him.

I am sure you as the parent have concerns about where his head is at - and hopefully his situation is one that benefit you - especially financially - because that will have to be taken into consideration should he decide not to take advantage of this opportunity.

As far as his 'work ethic being gone' - well maybe he needs to be told to grow up just a bit in that respect - that mindset will make or brake this situation for himself - and if he brakes it - well - only he can be responsible and held accountable for making that happen - not you.

He has choices - and hopefully he can really look at this from all sides and make a good choice - if he feels like he was served lemons - well he either make lemonaide - or he can throw them away - his choice.

tokenadult · 08-22-2006, 05:56 PM

AP sciences are few and far between in Minnesota high schools. That is one of the reasons my son is enrolling in the EPGY Online High School for the coming school year. But, to this state's credit, there are abundant opportunities here for eleventh-grade and twelfth-grade students here to dual enroll in colleges (including the U of MN) for high school credit on the state's dime,

http://www.ohe.state.mn.us/mPg.cfm?pageID=797

and indeed many of the successful applicants to Ivies here have that as their "high school" background. Both here and nationally, the early college phenomenon is largely a response to the lousy high school phenomenon--but where that is the possible response, dual enrollment is the prudent thing to do.

peege04 · 08-22-2006, 06:05 PM

Schools in the state of Minnesota have been dealing with about 10 years of budget cuts.

At the high school we have a 6 period day. After talking to the principal about the lack of AP Science classes (last year when it was too late for our son, I'm afraid), I found that they feel the 55 minutes allotted to each class is simply not enough to cover the amount of curriculum and lab work in an AP science program. I don't know if that's true, but that's what I was told.

The counselors knew of our son's interests in his freshman year, yet they didn't tell him that he should plan on seeking an AP class outside of school. Maybe this is because they receive $ based on the students they have in class. They might have just received 5/6 of the pupil funding for him instead of the whole.

Plus, this all feeds into a frenzy of parents continuing to buy an edge for their kids which we personally feel is disrespectful to the vast majority of children who don't have the money or resources to obtain these "extras."

My personal feeling is that the "ivies" are making some bad choices in failing to level the playing field and sift out some of these advantages parents are buying their students.

Fsu-uf · 08-22-2006, 06:17 PM

Whoa, intresting situation, I'm currently a senior, so I feel as if my opinion is a bit worthless but nonetheless. In my opinion your son has brand name syndrome, what is that may you ask, well simple, he only likes brand names. The ivies are considered the brand names while the great state school is seen as the cheaper, less appreciated product. Is the school bad,no, but doesn't get that name recognition that an Ivy would. My advice would be to tell your kid that this should be seen as a learning experience, if he truly doesn't like the U then he can transfer, aslong as he finds a way to provide for the financial difference. Undergrad education has gotten to be way to overrated, it reminds me of how there a now elite private schools for 5 year olds.